Britain outside the EU

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

No projection from me, plenty of sources state it.

And they would be equally speculating, conjecting and guessing.

Whether it’s you or them, it makes no difference.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'm interested in this part, what do you think will happen now they can't undercut British wages with cheap imported labour? I remember banging on relentlessly about this 15+ years ago and no one seemed to care back then.

I suspect a degree of consolidation in industries like fruit growing to take advantage of the economies of scale, coupled with investment in technology leading to a requirement for fewer, but somewhat skilled jobs, and multi-skilling of workers as they will need to stay with the business full time rather than be hired and fired seasonally. If any of this happens it will only be an extension of the trend already occurring in production of many salad items, which are increasingly produced in large, specialised and highly mechanised environments. The disincentive of doing this until now has been the ability of just anyone with a few fields and several hundred yards of PVC to throw up some poly tunnels and then pay Polish students per punnet when the strawberries are ripe.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'm interested in this part, what do you think will happen now they can't undercut British wages with cheap imported labour? I remember banging on relentlessly about this 15+ years ago and no one seemed to care back then.

They’ll either put up wages (and prices!) or just cease trading.

Look at the entrepreneurial spirit of the energy companies. Joining the ranks of Carillon and half the train operating companies that have ever existed.

Whatever the merits of leaving the EU or otherwise the decision to rush the process benefits venture capital and asset management firms who get to enjoy the “once in a generation” opportunities to feed on the carcass of an economy in chaos.

There are no plans to upskill UK workers, no plans to raise wages, no plans to improve living standards, no plans to tax large multinationals on profits from income generated in the UK, no plans to improve public services. All of the things taking back control could and should have meant.

The reality is the main beneficiaries need none of these things as their capital remains mobile even if workers are not.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

And they would be equally speculating, conjecting and guessing.

Whether it’s you or them, it makes no difference.

Not everyone plucks stuff from the air.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Not everyone plucks stuff from the air.

Politicians making promises?

Unless you are Sir Keir in which case you don’t make promises you just issue a 14,000 word cure for insomnia.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'm interested in this part, what do you think will happen now they can't undercut British wages with cheap imported labour? I remember banging on relentlessly about this 15+ years ago and no one seemed to care back then.

If we're talking about farming, it's looking like farmers are reducing production so we'll get more of our fruit and veg from overseas. However, technology is improving so hopefully it will continue to develop to make agriculture more viable in this country and we'll get some of that production back.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

I suspect a degree of consolidation in industries like fruit growing to take advantage of the economies of scale, coupled with investment in technology leading to a requirement for fewer, but somewhat skilled jobs, and multi-skilling of workers as they will need to stay with the business full time rather than be hired and fired seasonally. If any of this happens it will only be an extension of the trend already occurring in production of many salad items, which are increasingly produced in large, specialised and highly mechanised environments. The disincentive of doing this until now has been the ability of just anyone with a few fields and several hundred yards of PVC to throw up some poly tunnels and then pay Polish students per punnet when the strawberries are ripe.

Originally Posted by jfman

They’ll either put up wages (and prices!) or just cease trading.

Look at the entrepreneurial spirit of the energy companies. Joining the ranks of Carillon and half the train operating companies that have ever existed.

Whatever the merits of leaving the EU or otherwise the decision to rush the process benefits venture capital and asset management firms who get to enjoy the “once in a generation” opportunities to feed on the carcass of an economy in chaos.

There are no plans to upskill UK workers, no plans to raise wages, no plans to improve living standards, no plans to tax large multinationals on profits from income generated in the UK, no plans to improve public services. All of the things taking back control could and should have meant.

The reality is the main beneficiaries need none of these things as their capital remains mobile even if workers are not.

Is the correct answer imo, they'll put wages up hoping that the end user will buy British but they won't, they'll go for the cheapest option and it'll be foreign, I said the other day they'd be better of shutting the abattoirs and meat processing plants now rather than putting off the inevitable and nothings been said to change my mind, there might be a degree of automation brought into certain types of fruit and veg picking but not to the levels required to keep the industry functioning as it had been until recently. We won't have to worry about British workers filling these jobs because these jobs just won't be there and tbh I've never really got this arguhadment about British workers doing these jobs, we had as near 100% employment as was economically healthy and whilst there's always Shirkers and work shy there wasn't that many really, why shouldn't British workers aim higher than these jobs?

[1andrew1]

The government is looking at options to fix labour shortages in the food sector.

George Eustice said the government was considering whether changes could be made to the Seasonal Agricultural Workers' Scheme (SAWS).

SAWS is a quota-based scheme that allows farmers to recruit overseas.

Trade bodies have warned of panic-buying this Christmas unless action is taken to address the lack of staff.

Those shortages have been made worse by Covid and Brexit.

Mr Eustice acknowledged "the reality that there is an acute labour shortage at the moment across the UK economy".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58670790

[tweetiepooh]

Originally Posted by Chris

Actually, (c) the Bible - specifically Daniel 5:25, where the quote is first given in the original Aramaic (“Mene, mene, tekel, parsin”) then interpreted by Daniel for the benefit of Belshazzar, a Babylonian king who was understandably perturbed when a disembodied hand appeared, and wrote them on his dining room wall:



Primary sources and all that.

Fun aside - the early part of Daniel was written in Aramaic, the latter in Hebrew.


Also judgment fell quickly on Belshazzar - Dan 5:30 That same night...

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

Fun aside - the early part of Daniel was written in Aramaic, the latter in Hebrew.


Also judgment fell quickly on Belshazzar - Dan 5:30 That same night...

<pedant>Actually 1:1 to 2:4 is Hebrew, then it’s Aramaic until the end of chapter 7, then back to Hebrew.</pedant>

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chris

Actually, (c) the Bible - specifically Daniel 5:25, where the quote is first given in the original Aramaic (“Mene, mene, tekel, parsin”) then interpreted by Daniel for the benefit of Belshazzar, a Babylonian king who was understandably perturbed when a disembodied hand appeared, and wrote them on his dining room wall:



Primary sources and all that.

More than rather improbable, wouldn't you say?

[jfman]

I forget where we are doing the lorry driver shortage but I see Great British common sense is showing itself again with queues at petrol stations being reported now.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

I forget where we are doing the lorry driver shortage but I see Great British common sense is showing itself again with queues at petrol stations being reported now.

... but no shortage of toilet paper at Waitrose Wokingham.
I wonder how OB's getting on at ASDA.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

More than rather improbable, wouldn't you say?

That depends entirely on your frame of reference. The Bible simply assumes there is a supernatural realm and never really sets out to prove it. People of religious faith almost universally believe there is a supernatural realm, though their faith dictates precisely how they conceive of it. That may predispose us to assume such events did happen but should not lead us to absolutely conclude that they did.

So my approach to your question is different than yours. You approach it scientifically and conclude that nothing known to science could cause a disembodied hand to write a warning of future events on a wall that soon after came true. People of faith approach the story with due regard for its heritage, its genre and the intent of its authors and editors and ask, amongst other things, if it’s intended as a historical account of events, and if the things it recounts are internally consistent with the book it is found in (Daniel in this case) and in the wider collection of books we call the Bible.

I should point out that the entire Christian faith hangs on a supernatural occurrence - that Jesus really did get executed by hanging him on a Roman cross until he was dead, and that on the third day after they nailed him up, he rose from the dead. On that basis you shouldn’t be surprised that Christians tend to believe not everything can be known via the scientific method (which was devised by a monk incidentally)

However, we are several light years off topic so perhaps best let it rest there.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

... but no shortage of toilet paper at Waitrose Wokingham.
I wonder how OB's getting on at ASDA.

With a Costco card, there’s never a shortage…