Britain outside the EU

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Wahey !!!!!!

How else could a hard border have been prevented ? The much vaunted technological route was quickly dismissed as the technology is approx five years away.

I don’t know where you get that from. The problem isn’t related to any current inability for such technology to work. The main difficulty is that both jurisdictions have systems that do not talk to each other. How much easier would it be if for example, if you could raise an export health certificate in Northern Ireland or from other parts of the UK and to transmit this seamlessly across to the EU system? It’s just another IT project, not some pipe dream that cannot be implemented due to a lack of existing capability.

It would require an application programming interface, similar to what has already been put in place for New Zealand lamb exports. Defra claims that such a system could be up and running within ten weeks.

You guys are throwing everything negative at this to try to prove that Brexit won’t work, and you add to that your group ridicule and baiting to try to silence those with an alternative viewpoint. Typical left-wing tactics, always used when losing an argument. Why can some of you not engage in intelligent discussion rather than all this schoolboy idiocy?

I would just like to remind you that we are out of the EU and there will be no turning back. Now we have to look at the best ways of making this work, like it or not. It’s what we as a country voted for, after all.

---------- Post added at 20:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:25 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

So Boris isn't capable of getting his own party into line? Well, why no leadership contest to replace him ?

There are still remainers in the Conservative Party who would have voted against a no deal.

And besides which, you had all these opponents lining up to suggest that the country didn’t vote for a no deal - and the last thing Boris would have wanted was a legitimate charge that he had been undemocratic.

No, this deal either has to be made to work in a sensible manner, or he will have to prove to thinking people that the deal was a bad one and should be ditched.

---------- Post added at 20:36 ---------- Previous post was at 20:32 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Which in this case due to economic 'power' between the EU & the UK there is. There has been a negotiation, the EU let us have some bits, but on the bits they really wanted i would hazard a guess they got their way. Just IMHO

This appears to be a complete failure to understand that countries enter into trade deals for mutual benefit. It is not a Goliath and David contest. David can simply decide not to agree and walk away. No stones thrown.

---------- Post added at 20:38 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Historical revisionism at it’s finest here, OB. Top drawer stuff.

I think your memory leaves things to be desired, jfman. Champagne problems?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

Historical revisionism at it’s finest here, OB. Top drawer stuff.

Agreed. Citing willful optimism as your source doesn't cut it for me.

As a reminder, Johnson did not say that the deal was not great. He said it was “a good deal for the whole of Europe”.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...nouncement-evg

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Agreed. Citing willful optimism as your source doesn't cut it for me.

As a reminder, Johnson did not say that the deal was not great. He said it was “a good deal for the whole of Europe”.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...nouncement-evg

I think that idiot even called it a "fantastic deal".

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

And besides which, you had all these opponents lining up to suggest that the country didn’t vote for a no deal - and the last thing Boris would have wanted was a legitimate charge that he had been undemocratic.

According to many Leave advocates, we would still be in the Single Market. Didn't stop Johnson leading us out of it so in your book that's undemocratic.

"Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market" Daniel Hannan MEP

"Only a madman would actually leave the Market."
Owen Paterson MP, Vote Leave backer

Wouldn't it be terrible if we were really like Norway and Switzerland? Really? They're rich. They're happy. They're self-governing
Nigel Farage

---------- Post added at 21:07 ---------- Previous post was at 21:02 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I think that idiot even called it a "fantastic deal".

Now, now, don't be so harsh on Old Boy.

Joking aside, I think Johnson cleverly called it a "fantastic moment".

But Johnson's speech does show jfman's assertion of revisionism to be a valid one.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I think your memory leaves things to be desired, jfman. Champagne problems?

My memory serves me perfectly well. It’s a fine Belgian beer this evening.

If you genuinely believe that, as opposed to just being contrary, I’d seriously consider a man of your age speaks to your GP.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

My memory serves me perfectly well. It’s a fine Belgian beer this evening.

If you genuinely believe that, as opposed to just being contrary, I’d seriously consider a man of your age speaks to your GP.

Tut, tut jfman. Really not the right thing to say.

Apart from that the Wokingham Medical Centre is still barriered off with a metal trellis gate. See a GP? No chance.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Agreed. Citing willful optimism as your source doesn't cut it for me.

As a reminder, Johnson did not say that the deal was not great. He said it was “a good deal for the whole of Europe”.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...nouncement-evg

Yes, but we were where we were. And given where we were, it was the best deal that could be achieved. You remember very well, I am sure, that he was very critical of the May deal, which gave too much away. But starting again from scratch was not an option.

---------- Post added at 08:01 ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

According to many Leave advocates, we would still be in the Single Market.

More old ground. I thought we had established way back that if we remained in the single market, we would not be leaving Europe. This is a point that even many politicians didn't grasp at the beginning of the process.

Had anyone said to me that we would be staying in the Single Market, I would have asked why we were trying to 'leave' at all, because this would have been disadvantageous to us without reaping the benefits of Brexit.

---------- Post added at 08:03 ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

My memory serves me perfectly well. It’s a fine Belgian beer this evening.

If you genuinely believe that, as opposed to just being contrary, I’d seriously consider a man of your age speaks to your GP.

I was just bigging you up as a man of taste when I mentioned the champagne, but now you've ruined that image.

---------- Post added at 08:05 ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

How ironic.

Between NI and the Republic, jfman. You know, like what happens now.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Yes, but we were where we were. And given where we were, it was the best deal that could be achieved. You remember very well, I am sure, that he was very critical of the May deal, which gave too much away. But starting again from scratch was not an option.

You seem to have forgotten my point! My point was that you believed Johnson said the deal was a bad one at the time. I pointed out that he had not said this.
You just needed to agree that you misremembered. Your comments above are entirely irrelevant to the point I raised.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I don’t know where you get that from. The problem isn’t related to any current inability for such technology to work. The main difficulty is that both jurisdictions have systems that do not talk to each other. How much easier would it be if for example, if you could raise an export health certificate in Northern Ireland or from other parts of the UK and to transmit this seamlessly across to the EU system? It’s just another IT project, not some pipe dream that cannot be implemented due to a lack of existing capability.

It would require an application programming interface, similar to what has already been put in place for New Zealand lamb exports. Defra claims that such a system could be up and running within ten weeks.

<SNIP>

Well done, you've managed to read an article I've read too. what you fail to mention is the time period to design and agree the specification of the API which is potentially two years.

From the same article you also conveniently neglect to mention the other two services that are required for this to work. one being the surveillance system for automated customs checks, which does not exist and would be years away from implementation, this is a key system which would be required at the launch of any API integration.

Secondly you forget to mention the automated tax reimbursement system that to a lesser degree is also required, and guess what that doesn't exist either.

Would you like to post that article link, or shall i? Or, would you like to pipe down on a subject you have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever ?

[Carth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

'big snip'

. . would you like to pipe down on a subject you have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever ?

If we all did that, there would be about 6 posts in this thread

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Agreed. Citing willful optimism as your source doesn't cut it for me.

I know Andrew. Wilful negitivism is much more your style.

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Well done, you've managed to read an article I've read too. what you fail to mention is the time period to design and agree the specification of the API which is potentially two years.

From the same article you also conveniently neglect to mention the other two services that are required for this to work. one being the surveillance system for automated customs checks, which does not exist and would be years away from implementation, this is a key system which would be required at the launch of any API integration.

Secondly you forget to mention the automated tax reimbursement system that to a lesser degree is also required, and guess what that doesn't exist either.

Would you like to post that article link, or shall i? Or, would you like to pipe down on a subject you have absolutely no knowledge of whatsoever ?

If I can remind you, what you said was that the technology was five years away, and that is what I was referring to.

It's not five years away in terms of technology - we could do it now. I agree that the two sides would have to agree on the specification, etc, and it will certainly take a couple of years, particularly when you take into account that the EU moves at a snail's pace.

We put forward these ideas well before any deal was agreed, and the EU's refusal to consider the technology solution is why it could not be implemented yet. But the solution is there if indeed a solution is wanted.

As for surveillance systems, there are other ways to accomplish all this with agreed methods of packaging, labelling and security. If the will is there, these problems can be resolved. Insulting me does not prove your argument. On the contrary, it shows that you are on shaky ground and wouldn't welcome a reply.

All par for the course in this place, I suppose. Shame.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I know Andrew. Wilful negitivism is much more your style..

IMHO, threads where posters link to their sources result in more stimulating debates and fewer unnecessary and cantankerous arguments.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I know Andrew. Wilful negitivism is much more your style.

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 ----------



If I can remind you, what you said was that the technology was five years away, and that is what I was referring to.

It's not five years away in terms of technology - we could do it now. I agree that the two sides would have to agree on the specification, etc, and it will certainly take a couple of years, particularly when you take into account that the EU moves at a snail's pace.

We put forward these ideas well before any deal was agreed, and the EU's refusal to consider the technology solution is why it could not be implemented yet. But the solution is there if indeed a solution is wanted.

As for surveillance systems, there are other ways to accomplish all this with agreed methods of packaging, labelling and security. If the will is there, these problems can be resolved. Insulting me does not prove your argument. On the contrary, it shows that you are on shaky ground and wouldn't welcome a reply.

All par for the course in this place, I suppose. Shame.

No, we, can't

The monitoring and surveillance technology required to monitor the automated customs routines via the as of yet unspecified & uncreated API does not exist and will not exist for five years. These systems must be automated and implemented at the same time as the API.

The only technology that does not have to go in at the same time is the automated rebate service.

Having spent some time in my past roles designing architecture & services for government IT projects, specifically in my case the home office. I can tell you that the pace set by the EU will be Usain Bolt esque compared to UK.


A technological solution is the answer but is not deliverable at the moment.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

No, we, can't

The monitoring and surveillance technology required to monitor the automated customs routines via the as of yet unspecified & uncreated API does not exist and will not exist for five years. These systems must be automated and implemented at the same time as the API.

The only technology that does not have to go in at the same time is the automated rebate service.

Having spent some time in my past roles designing architecture & services for government IT projects, specifically in my case the home office. I can tell you that the pace set by the EU will be Usain Bolt esque compared to UK.


A technological solution is the answer but is not deliverable at the moment.

Some useful insights there which I hope are not forgotten.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Some useful insights there which I hope are not forgotten.

Attack by proxy!