Britain outside the EU

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

It does when there is a contiguous border with another country - ignoring it won’t make it go away.

If we want trade agreements with other countries, telling the WTO to "sod off" is a sub-optimal approach.

You are obtusely missing the point. The Uk internal market has nothing to do with the WTO.

The trade border with Eire is a matter between the EU (sod ‘em) and the UK (bless us).

Nobody needs to tell the WTO to sod off. It’s just my way of expressing feelings towards the EU loving crap that some on here are espousing.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You are obtusely missing the point. The Uk internal market has nothing to do with the WTO.

The trade border with Eire is a matter between the EU (sod ‘em) and the UK (bless us).

Nobody needs to tell the WTO to sod off. It’s just my way of expressing feelings towards the EU loving crap that some on here are espousing.

Whatever frustrations you might post in jest, I know you're wise enough to know matters are regrettably more complicated than this.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You are obtusely missing the point. The Uk internal market has nothing to do with the WTO.

The trade border with Eire is a matter between the EU (sod ‘em) and the UK (bless us).

Nobody needs to tell the WTO to sod off. It’s just my way of expressing feelings towards the EU loving crap that some on here are espousing.

When the U.K. Internal Market has a contiguous border with a country that is not in that internal market, and there are no checks on goods crossing that border, to the potential detriment of other countries trading with the U.K., it has everything to do with the WTO.

Stating facts is not "EU loving crap".

[Sephiroth]

Stating facts that are tangential to the question of trade between GB & NI is pointless.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You are obtusely missing the point. The Uk internal market has nothing to do with the WTO.

The trade border with Eire is a matter between the EU (sod ‘em) and the UK (bless us).

Nobody needs to tell the WTO to sod off. It’s just my way of expressing feelings towards the EU loving crap that some on here are espousing.

So how would you square keeping the NI/IE border open without checks AND keeping the trade between GB and NI open?

Maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part but at least one of these three agreements needs to be broken;

Northern Ireland Protocol
Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement
World Trade Organisation MFN rules

It looks like the first is the one we want to break but that will then break the Belfast Agreement unless we keep the border open, breaking the MFN rules

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

So how would you square keeping the NI/IE border open without checks AND keeping the trade between GB and NI open?

Maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part but at least one of these three agreements needs to be broken;

Northern Ireland Protocol
Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement
World Trade Organisation MFN rules

It looks like the first is the one we want to break but that will then break the Belfast Agreement unless we keep the border open, breaking the MFN rules

It’s very simple and a matter of rules interpretation. The EU could be friendly and assist definition of goods that are UK internal market only and thus exempt from NI customs treatment. They could agree to this in the interests of avoiding further sectarian dispute.

The Unionists quite reasonably want NI to be a proper part of the UK. The EU wants to split the UK up.

EDIT: MFN/WTO rules don’t come into this. NI is part of the UK.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It’s very simple and a matter of rules interpretation. The EU could be friendly and assist definition of goods that are UK internal market only and thus exempt from NI customs treatment. They could agree to this in the interests of avoiding further sectarian dispute.

The Unionists quite reasonably want NI to be a proper part of the UK. The EU wants to split the UK up.

EDIT: MFN/WTO rules don’t come into this. NI is part of the UK.

Or, the UK could align standards, but from what I've seen they're refusing to do that...... I can't think why

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It’s very simple and a matter of rules interpretation. The EU could be friendly and assist definition of goods that are UK internal market only and thus exempt from NI customs treatment. They could agree to this in the interests of avoiding further sectarian dispute.

The Unionists quite reasonably want NI to be a proper part of the UK. The EU wants to split the UK up.

EDIT: MFN/WTO rules don’t come into this. NI is part of the UK.

Would the WTO be happy with this idea? How could you stop NI-only goods leaking over the invisible border into the Republic eg lots of cheap Australian beef and wine in the future?

---------- Post added at 10:16 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Or, the UK could align standards, but from what I've seen they're refusing to do that...... I can't think why

The UK needs to be a friendly neighbour and align veterinary standards as they are now and stop the aggressive rhetoric.

Problem solved - or does BoJo like the current divisive situation so the Express/Telegraph can devote copy to how bad the EU is and reassure voters that they made the right choice? Despite what farmers, steel workers, fishermen, touring bands, the City, etc might be whinging about.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Would the WTO be happy with this idea? How could you stop NI-only goods leaking over the invisible border into the Republic eg lots of cheap Australian beef and wine in the future?

---------- Post added at 10:16 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------


The UK needs to be a friendly neighbour and align veterinary standards as they are now and stop the aggressive rhetoric. Problem solved - or does BoJo like the current divisive situation so the Express/telegraph can devote copy to how bad the EU is and how voters made the right choice despite what farmers, steel workers, fisher men, touring bands, the City etc might be whinging about.

Boris doesn't want to align standards due to one simple reason (as you well know), it would cause significant issues with future trade deals (looking at the US here)

He's up the creek without a paddle & he knows it.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Boris doesn't want to align standards due to one simple reason (as you well know), it would cause significant issues with future trade deals (looking at the US here)

He's up the creek without a paddle & he knows it.

Biden has said it's not an issue for a US trade deal.

Martin spoke after Irish officials were informed by U.S. counterparts that Biden has told U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson at the G7 summit that a temporary U.K.-EU agreement on food standards would pose no barrier to a separate U.K.-US trade deal.
Britain previously has rejected any such accord with the EU precisely because this could make it harder to reach a trade pact with America, where food production standards deviate sharply from EU rules, including use of hormones in beef production and chlorine in chicken.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-e...-pact-ireland/

[tweetiepooh]

Ireland is a bit of a unique situation being one country and two countries both at the same time. It's both in the EU and not in the EU.


We can't just try to apply normal rules to an abnormal situation.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It’s very simple and a matter of rules interpretation. The EU could be friendly and assist definition of goods that are UK internal market only and thus exempt from NI customs treatment. They could agree to this in the interests of avoiding further sectarian dispute.

The Unionists quite reasonably want NI to be a proper part of the UK. The EU wants to split the UK up.

EDIT: MFN/WTO rules don’t come into this. NI is part of the UK.

It's not really rules intepretation though is it? It's changing the rules. The UK agreed that NI would be (sort of) part of the EU Single Market to keep the NI/IE border open. Now we want to change that.

There were mechinaisms in place for border posts for GB-NI trade that would facilitate the segregation of GB and EU goods but the unionists stopped them.

On your final point of MFN/WTO rules, like it or not, Northern ireland does border the EU. Without the NIP, WTO/MFN rules would apply and that either close the border or open all UK borders to unlimited trade.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Biden has said it's not an issue for a US trade deal.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-e...-pact-ireland/

So, Boris is just being awkward then....

[Sephiroth]

To all of you:

1/
Again, the WTO doesn’t come into the UK single market enshrined in the NIP.

2/
The above needs appropriate interpretation by th EU.

3/
Now the rub. The UK needs trusted status and Boris is not that person to take that foward. This is my point of convergence with some Remainers (not Hugh).

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

To all of you:

1/
Again, the WTO doesn’t come into the UK single market enshrined in the NIP.

2/
The above needs appropriate interpretation by the EU.

The UK and EU are global trading entities who have to abide by WTO rules or face the consequences. As Hugh has outlined.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

3/
Now the rub. The UK needs trusted status and Boris is not that person to take that foward. This is my point of convergence with some Remainers (not Hugh).

Who? A politician with a legal background?

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

So, Boris is just being awkward then....

He seems to be going all a bit all ideological on this.