U.S Election 2016

Originally Posted by Mick

If this about what Trump said about women, I think you will find I have already said, what he said was wrong.

So because you said it was wrong and Trump apologized then we should all forget about it but because Madonna has been a bit crude and a bit distasteful trying to be funny at a comedy show then the entire womens equality and gay rights movements are invalid (your words)

Originally Posted by martyh

So because you said it was wrong and Trump apologized then we should all forget about it but because Madonna has been a bit crude and a bit distasteful trying to be funny at a comedy show then the entire womens equality and gay rights movements are invalid (your words)

Did I suggest to forget about it ? Did I say all the other protests around the World were invalid, No, I didn't.

What I am saying is, I or anybody else for that matter should not and cannot take a Demonstration or a protest seriously when these same women give someone like Madonna, who offered sexual acts for favors, a platform for respecting women.

Originally Posted by Mick

Did I suggest to forget about it ? Did I say all the other protests around the World were invalid, No, I didn't.

What I am saying is, I or anybody else for that matter should not and cannot take a Demonstration or a protest seriously when these same women give someone like Madonna, who offered sexual acts for favors, a platform for respecting women.

Yes you did ,here

Originally Posted by Mick

Wrong again, it makes the platform she stands on, very invalid.

You are cherry picking again martyh, it's ok for aging old Madonna to have a dirty mouth, talking of performing sexual acts to buy votes and then stand on a platform to demand respect for women, I do not think so, infact, I know so, as it's had the opposite effect on me, I cannot and will not respect those hypocrites for women.

You have shown a complete lack of understanding as to why they where protesting in the first place calling them "mindless anarchists" and saying that protesting against Trump is pointless .Trump is making a huge mistake by just dismissing the protesters ,i don't think Trump is going to like democracy very much

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Mick

Joke or not, it is still implied and it is still BAD either way, very impossible to respect a woman who jokes about offering to do a sexual act, in exchange for votes, so sorry not a wind up, if you think it is reasonable to joke about such a thing, you have double standards as well. Also what evidence are you talking about of him actually being seen to be grabbing women?

I think it's reasonable to joke about anything, her mistake if anything imo was that it wasn't that funny, seems odd to me to make an issue about what an old woman won't be consenting to do in the future rather than what an old man says he did do, consentual or otherwise and that's where the evidence comes from, his own mouth and the woman that claim he did it to, of course there's only one way to evaluate the validity of that evidence, they could all be attention seekers like the donald claims

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mick

I can if it's Madonna.

Fair enough

Originally Posted by martyh

Yes you did ,here

Wrong : I said the platform she stood on, that's not talking about all the bloody protests FFS ! You making stuff up again martyh that I just did not say.

You have shown a complete lack of understanding as to why they where protesting in the first place calling them "mindless anarchists" and saying that protesting against Trump is pointless .Trump is making a huge mistake by just dismissing the protesters ,i don't think Trump is going to like democracy very much

No, wrong again I said the ones breaking windows were the mindless I did actually say if you bother to look that I respected the protests for equality, go look for the post !

[Pierre]

It's the same the world over, liberals and the far left are the most dangerous, anti- democratic, anti- freedom of them all.

Just to avoid confusion here. The day of the inauguration there was violence around Washington and actual anarchists who turned up to cause trouble. The next day, the day of protests with the massive crowds etc, there was no violence and no arrests in Washington(which is amazing for a protest of that size.

So I think people are getting wires crossed on that one.

---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:47 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

It's the same the world over, liberals and the far left are the most dangerous, anti- democratic, anti- freedom of them all.

What is anti-democratic about the protests?

Incidentally I think extremists of either persuasion are dangerous. They need to be authoritarian in order in control people and implement change. It's usually too difficult to do so otherwise as you need to compromise with a wide range of opinion in a democracy. So both fascist Germany or Communist Russia had to oppress political opposition and the press. I would also point out there are plenty of people who've murdered others or committed terrorist acts in the name of far-right ideologies. Just last year we had a member of Parliament killed by such a person.

It's up to both sides to disassociate themselves with such people and not to assume it's only a problem the other side needs to worry about. But I don't think we should judge wide groups of people by their most extreme elements either. I think people would get along much better if they did that. Especially since once you've put people into such buckets then it's harder to empathise with them as individuals.

[pip08456]

As a pedant view I'll agree with you Damien, the far right and far left are more dangerous than Liberals whose only existance seems to be to whine about not getting their own way.

Originally Posted by pip08456

As a pedant view I'll agree with you Damien, the far right and far left are more dangerous than Liberals whose only existance seems to be to whine about not getting their own way.

Unlike the Donald, who never whines or complains....

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

Just to avoid confusion here. The day of the inauguration there was violence around Washington and actual anarchists who turned up to cause trouble. The next day, the day of protests with the massive crowds etc, there was no violence and no arrests in Washington(which is amazing for a protest of that size.

So I think people are getting wires crossed on that one.

---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:47 ----------



What is anti-democratic about the protests?

Incidentally I think extremists of either persuasion are dangerous. They require authoritarianism in order in control people and implement change. It's usually too difficult to do so otherwise and you need to compromise with a wide range of opinion in a democracy. So whether it's fascist Germany or Communist Russia. They both had to oppress political opposition and the press. I would also point out there are plenty of people who've murdered others or committed terrorist acts in the name of far-right ideologies. Just last year we had a member of Parliament killed by such a person.

It's up to both sides to disassociate themselves with such people and not to assume it's only a problem the other side needs to worry about. But I don't think we should judge wide groups of people by their most extreme elements either. I think people would get along much better if they did that. Especially since once you've put people into such buckets then it's harder to empathise with them as individuals.

Far left demonstrations, riots, protests, attract thousands and cause swathes of damage and destruction.

Far right, EDL, or BNP ( but they're defunct now anyway). You get maybe 50 ish.

The left is where the thought police reside, the left happily brand anyone that doesn't subscribe to their doctrine, racist or homophobic, unnecessarily. This makes people uncomfortable, they disengage and they re-engage at the ballot box.

Trump, Brexit and whatever else follows is the direct result of the unwillingness of the left to have sensible conversation before branding anybody with a contrary point of view as racist and homophobic.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Far left demonstrations, riots, protests, attract thousands and cause swathes of damage and destruction.

Far right, EDL, or BNP ( but they're defunct now anyway). You get maybe 50 ish.

They don't have protests as much but there are still other areas of violence. Breivik killed 77 children attending a Labour youth camp for example. The worst excesses of the far-left aren't protests either but cases of deaths and killings in countries such as Venezuela.

The left is where the thought police reside, the left happily brand anyone that doesn't subscribe to their doctrine, racist or homophobic, unnecessarily. This makes people uncomfortable, they disengage and they re-engage at the ballot box.

I agree with some of this. It's what I was saying about the inability for people to emphasise with large groups so some consider those on the right as racist, nasty, ****. They've put everyone into a bucket and given them a label and it's much easier to think of all of them but their worst elements and summon a caricature of them in your head to hate. But the right does it too by assuming everyone on the left is defined by a different caricature: all of them are lazy, champagne drinking, sneering 'libtards' who border on treachery for their views.

Trump, Brexit and whatever else follows is the direct result of the unwillingness of the left to have sensible conversation before branding anybody with a contrary point of view as racist and homophobic.

I think some of this though has been overplayed. In fact the whole right/left thing seems to be breaking down and turning into something else. Globalists vs Nativists maybe. There was a sign at one of those protests yesterday having a go at protectionism, a left-wing protest was opposing protectionism.

I see a lot more of that in the Trump and Brexit votes than identity politics. The biggest support for both of these came from industrial areas of their nations where jobs had either stagnated or fallen as jobs moved overseas. The biggest support for the other side came in urban areas who've largely benefited.

If it did have an impact I would say it was in distracting people 'on the left' (although I think many Tories and Republicans missed it too) were paying too much attention to those kinds of issues rather than the fact areas of their country were collapsing. No one in power paid attention to what was happening.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by pip08456

It has long been accepted that millions of people "witnessed" the lunar landing in 1969.

Now, according to you. They didn't.

Screw you, I did!

I think some of Trump's creative spirit may have spreed to his followers. Without a source your bold statement has no legs to stand on, unlike the lunar capsule.
If you look up "witness" in a dictionary you'll see that it refers to being personally present.
But as others have said, the numbers who witnessed the inauguration or viewed it on TV (the latter likely to be high) are not the issue. The issue is that Trump lied.
He could turn out to be a great president and I do agree with some of the things he says. But it's not the promising start to a presidency I would have hoped for.

Originally Posted by Mick

Wrong : I said the platform she stood on, that's not talking about all the bloody protests FFS ! You making stuff up again martyh that I just did not say.
!

i quoted your post so nothing was made up ,you can't keep accusing people of making stuff up when you are called out on your posts
You made it perfectly clear that you think the women protesters where "mindless anarchists" you think that the platform she was protesting for is "invalid" because she (Madonna) is involved which to be perfectly blunt is complete bollocks ,one has nothing to do with the other .Womens rights,gay rights ,black rights,everybody's rights are always valid regardless of who decides to get up and speak for them

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

a left-wing protest was opposing protectionism.

Funny that, as unless I dream't it, all the anti- globalisation protests of the last few years have been strictly left-wing.