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Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking
But at Sandy Hook, the guns belonged to his mother. No checks would have stopped that.
Can’t fix everything, so don’t do anything?
Nobody needs .50 calibre sniper rifles at home, or auto or semi-auto weapons at home. Keep a shotgun or handgun for home defence, with a shotgun or bolt action rifle for hunting, with everything else kept in a gun club. Proper registration, training, and insurance for gun owners, just like for car drivers.
Probably too sensible - easier just for schools to keep getting shot up.
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Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick
In the last 24 hours, Trump has announced that he has signed a Memorandum instructing the Department of Justice to see if Bump Stocks can be outlawed, that is a start, as that stop Semi-Automatic Machine guns becoming fully automatic.
He is suppose to have announced today, age restrictions, that's another step in the right direction, a person cannot buy alcohol under the age of 21, but they can buy a gun. Plain wrong.
I said the other day, it's gone beyond the point to totally outlaw guns completely, because no gun amnesty will fully remove every gun from the streets of every State and that's nearly 1/3 of a billion guns and I don't think half of America will willingly part with them without causing a civil war.
I seem to remember hearing that over 50% of guns in America were owned by 3% of the population, interesting statistic
Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy
I seem to remember hearing that over 50% of guns in America were owned by 3% of the population, interesting statistic
I saw one statistic say, for every 1 person, there is 12 guns in circulation (This doesn't mean 1 person owns 12 guns, however some Americans may do as there is no limit that I am aware of..)
The Las Vegas shooter had an absolute arsenal of weapons, guns, rifles and ammunition, that could have suited a army squad and he owned and I believe he was able buy them all legally.
Earlier, the President hosted a emotional listening session in the White House of some of the victims parents from various school massacres. It was a long session, well over an hour and I watched it all, truly moving. Particular the dad whose daughter died last week in the Florida shooting.
About 20.55 minutes in is when he speaks. He said this is not a party vs party issue.
Trump asked for some suggestions. The Second Amendment is not going away. The meeting was about protecting schools, some present felt schools were soft targets, with having gun free zones at some campuses.
If people don't have the inclination to watch the entire listening debate, just watch the father speak at 20.55 minutes in.
Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick
I saw one statistic say, for every 1 person, there is 12 guns in circulation (This doesn't mean 1 person owns 12 guns, however some Americans may do as there is no limit that I am aware of..)
The Las Vegas shooter had an absolute arsenal of weapons, guns, rifles and ammunition, that could have suited a army squad and he owned and I believe he was able buy them all legally.
Earlier, the President hosted a emotional listening session in the White House of some of the victims parents from various school massacres. It was a long session, well over an hour and I watched it all, truly moving. Particular the dad whose daughter died last week in the Florida shooting.
About 20.55 minutes in is when he speaks. He said this is not a party vs party issue.
Trump asked for some suggestions. The Second Amendment is not going away. The meeting was about protecting schools, some present felt schools were soft targets, with having gun free zones at some campuses.
If people don't have the inclination to watch the entire listening debate, just watch the father speak at 20.55 minutes in.
Looked it up as that figure seemed incredibly high! One per person on average as of 2007 might be more accurate, although considering there were twice as many guns then than there were in 1968 God knows how many more have been acquired in the 10 years since 2007
Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Giving Teachers guns is treating a symptom, not a cause.
After Grenfell, we didn’t suggest putting fire extinguishers on the corner of every street; when car crash deaths rose, we made cars safer (crumple zones, non burst fuel tanks, seat belts, air bags, etc.), we didn’t suggest all civvies should receive simple paramedic training to help after the crash. After 9/11, airport security got stricter, it wasn’t suggested that they arm air stewards/stewardesses (and I’m not talking about Sky Marshals - they’ve always had those).
To be competent with a firearm, you need regular training, and that’s just target practice - trying to shoot an individual in the midst of many others makes it even more difficult; How would the First Responders know who was the bad guy, and who were the teachers? How would the firearms be kept secure when not in use? How many teachers would need to be armed? (There were 2 armed guards at the Florida school). What’s to stop a pupil knocking the teacher out and taking their gun?
Armed teachers would probably only intervene after the shooting starts - wouldn’t it be better if the shooting didn’t start.
The saying ‘it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun’ was said by someone trying to sell two guns.
I understand the US citizens strong feelings about the 2nd Amendment, but if they insist on needing guns so they can be a ‘militia’, they need to be a ‘well regulated militia’.
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Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
Can’t fix everything, so don’t do anything?
Nobody needs .50 calibre sniper rifles at home, or auto or semi-auto weapons at home. Keep a shotgun or handgun for home defence, with a shotgun or bolt action rifle for hunting, with everything else kept in a gun club. Proper registration, training, and insurance for gun owners, just like for car drivers.
Probably too sensible - easier just for schools to keep getting shot up.
People are going around making bogus claims that X, Y, and Z wouldn't have happened if such and such had been done. A fundamental problem is that guns in the US cannot be uninvented.
Probably the biggest factor in any attack is the media going on and on about previous attacks. Same as with so many other issues. It is the media that are effectively promoting them.
Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking
People are going around making bogus claims that X, Y, and Z wouldn't have happened if such and such had been done. A fundamental problem is that guns in the US cannot be uninvented.
Probably the biggest factor in any attack is the media going on and on about previous attacks. Same as with so many other issues. It is the media that are effectively promoting them.
Making hypothetical suggestions is not making bogus claims..also if the media don't report the FULL facts that's just censorship. Don't shoot the messenger in other words.Actually try to get to grips with the real issue.The best way is to mention previous cases but not to name the perpetrators,to name the victims instead and to call out those who will not address the basic issue.
__________________ Hell is empty and all the devils are here. Shakespeare..
Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking
People are going around making bogus claims that X, Y, and Z wouldn't have happened if such and such had been done. A fundamental problem is that guns in the US cannot be uninvented.
Probably the biggest factor in any attack is the media going on and on about previous attacks. Same as with so many other issues. It is the media that are effectively promoting them.
Absolutely agree with you.
How can they say arming teachers could have prevented this?
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Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
It’s understanding the American human ‘psyche’ regarding guns and the 2nd Amendment. Here, we are ingrained from early life that guns are dangerous and highly illegal and cannot be bought at the local shopping malls.
In the U.S the reverse of what we are used to is true, and there were survivors in that meeting in the White House, who still believe in the 2nd Amendment, but still demonstrate how easy it is to buy ‘weapons of war’ that was this kids words, not mine. That a kid was able to buy an AR at 20 years of age with an expired ID. The other big problem, is the the NRA. Powerful gun lobby, who last night I believe are still opposed to age restrictions in buying a gun, someone needs to tell them to shut up.
How do I feel about a teacher possessing a gun? Not good. But I saw one teacher comment elsewhere that if they have no choice to save children’s lives, they’d rather be able to be able to fire bullets back rather than be in the line of fire or running for cover and watching kids get shot to death.
Columbine massacre should have been a wake up call on guns. Sandy Hook, where kids of 6 or 7 years of age were shot to death, that deffo should have been, we really need to do something here. Las Vegas. I love Las Vegas, I have been there multiple times, it saddens me that in places I’ve stood, was the worst mass shooting incident in modern U.S history, again, nothing was done. As soon as gun restrictions get mentioned in the U.S, that American psyche kicks in and it just for some reason, draws Americans to buy more guns, in a panic mode session.
Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
I totally agree with you, but it's not just the American psyche, it's the NRA - they've spent so long telling people the Government is coming for your guns, people believe it, when the facts don't back those statements up. The NRA needs to represent safe gun owners, not the weapons manufacturers.
The NRA always equate gun control with no one having guns - car safety regulations doesn't mean no cars, building safety regulations doesn't mean no buildings, but somehow the NRA are allowed to peddle this myth, and because they fund politicians (and fund against anyone who doesn't agree with them), they succeed.
Could you imagine the outcry if Pharma companies were allowed to supply everyday prescription and non-prescription drugs where the side-effects outweighed the benefits, and it was found that the politicians who passed the laws allowing this were receiving millions of dollars in support from the Pharma companies? They don't even allow the CDC to conduct research on gun violence - you know, so there could be unbiased evidence-based discussion...
In 1996, Congress passed the Dickey amendment. The legislation stated that “none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.” While that wording did not ban CDC gun research outright, the legislation was accompanied by a US$2.6 million budget cut. That amount happened to match the amount the CDC had spent on firearms research the previous year. The message was clear. From 1996 to 2013, CDC funding for gun research dropped by 96 percent.
The CDC wasn’t the only federal agency affected. In 2011, Congress added a similar clause to legislation that regulated funding for the National Institutes of Health. However, due to a directive from the Obama administration, the NIH continued to provide funding for gun research. That push faded as the Obama administration left office.
Earlier this year, the NIH discontinued its funding program that specifically focused on firearm violence. While firearms researchers can still apply for funding through more general NIH funding opportunities, critics say that makes funding for gun research less likely.
The Dickey amendment was passed after a CDC-funded study, led by physician and epidemiologist Arthur Kellerman, found that having a gun in the home increased homicide risk. After the results were published, the National Rifle Association pressured lawmakers, arguing that the CDC was inappropriately using its funds to advocate for gun control.
LaPierre is nominally subordinate to the NRA’s president but after 24 years as executive vice-president he is the real power within the organisation.
LaPierre, who earns about $1m a year, has built considerable support within the gun rights community with an aggressive interpretation of the second amendment as the virtually unrestricted right to carry a weapon and his willingness to target the government as the enemy.
He has also driven a strategy to portray gun control as part of the broader “culture war” over God, race, abortions and big government.
LaPierre’s opposition to any new form of gun control has only hardened over the years. After the Columbine school massacre in 1999, he supported background checks on buyers at gun shows. By the time of the Sandy Hook school killings three years ago, he was against it because the most vocal activists within the NRA – it claims 4 million members but only a small percentage vote – were strongly opposed...
...Ackerman McQueen designed the confrontational campaigns in favour of gun rights which went on the offensive after each mass killing in the US by portraying any new restrictions as an attempt by the government to “ban your guns”. These in turn made LaPierre hugely popular within sections of the gun rights community...
...When the leaders of an industry group, the American Shooting Sports Council (ASSC), met President Bill Clinton in 1999 to discuss curbs on automatic weapons and magazine sizes in the wake of the Columbine school massacre, Baker led the NRA pushback.
The ASSC was shut down. Its director, Robert Ricker, accused the NRA and Baker of pressuring the gun industry to disband the organisation.
“Baker controls everything,” Ricker told the authors of Outgunned: Up Against the NRA. “That has made me so angry. There are gun companies out there willing to be responsible and ready to stop illegal use of guns – more than willing. But the NRA, and Baker in particular, will not let them. Any gun company who ventures outside the fold is kicked back into line. They go along with the NRA to save their factories.”...
...Baker was instrumental in whipping Smith & Wesson into line 15 years ago after it bowed to pressure from the Clinton administration to make changes to its products, including placing locks on its handguns and “smart gun” technology that would only allow the owner to fire it.
The NRA accused Smith & Wesson of “running up the white flag of surrender”. It led a boycott of the company which cut its sales in half and nearly drove it into bankruptcy. That was the end of any cooperation between the industry and gun control advocates.
Glock, which had been talking to the Clinton White House about agreeing to similar measures, cut off discussions.
In an effort to restore sales, the Smith & Wesson management was forced out. The company’s new president sought out Baker and had a photograph taken with him which the company sent to gun dealers across the US.
Smith & Wesson’s sales bounced back and it is now a major financial contributor to the NRA.
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Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
What saddened me, is that after watching that White House meeting, this wasn’t about politics or what our views are on Trump. That on the official twitter page of the Democrats, all they could say, was the ‘President was just paying lip service and won’t do nowt’. Well, he’s already took some action on buck stocks, he looked like he is in favour of age restrictions, he is going to have to ignore the NRA, sponsors or no sponsors of him.
In situations like this, the two major parties, need their heads banging together. Drop the party vs party bullshit and draw up bipartisan changes, that saves lives. Keep having this them vs. us attitude is wrong and will not solve anything.
Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick
What saddened me, is that after watching that White House meeting, this wasn’t about politics or what our views are on Trump. That on the official twitter page of the Democrats, all they could say, was the ‘President was just paying lip service and won’t do nowt’. Well, he’s already took some action on buck stocks, he looked like he is in favour of age restrictions, he is going to have to ignore the NRA, sponsors or no sponsors of him.
In situations like this, the two major parties, need their heads banging together. Drop the party vs party bullshit and draw up bipartisan changes, that saves lives. Keep having this them vs. us attitude is wrong and will not solve anything.
Once again, totally agree.
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Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Quote:
Donald J Trump
@realdonaldtrump
I never said “give teachers guns” like was stated on Fake News @CNN & @NBC. What I said was to look at the possibility of giving “concealed guns to gun adept teachers with military or special training experience - only the best. 20% of teachers, a lot, would now be able to
22/02/2018 12:26
Can someone help?
I’m trying to understand what the difference between ‘give teachers guns’ and ‘the possibility of giving “concealed guns to gun adept teachers with military or special training experience‘ - doesn’t the second phrase still mean give teachers guns, even if it is a subset?
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Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
I think he's trying to point out and failing is, giving guns to Ex-Vets/Police/Trained who are now teachers who can handle a gun, as opposed to just giving guns to everyday teachers. But you're right, they are still 'teachers'.
A parent in that meeting yesterday suggested it and Trump did actually say, not everyone would agree or would find it controversial, but I have said before, guns are not going away in America, so next best thing is to eradicate the gun free zones that does exist in schools, it's sad, that there could be the risk of a gun sling out in a school but there has to be some protection for kids instead of just running for cover or teachers using their own bodies as shields and dying in the process.
Jake Sherman from Politica tweeted this a short time ago when Trump tweeted about wanting to implement age restrictions to 21... That Congress may not do it.
Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
Church in Pennsylvania asks worshippers to bring their assault rifles to blessing
Tim Elder, the church's director of world missions, said it believes the AR-15 symbolises the "rod of iron" mentioned in the Bible's apocalyptic book of Revelation.
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