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Huge fire at West London tower block
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Old 07-05-2021, 13:07   #466
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

I thought all buildings with that cladding now had to have a “waking watch”, someone on the premises actively managing the premises 24 hours a day. A half-hour delay in the alarm being raised is concerning.
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Old 07-05-2021, 13:51   #467
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Not the slightest bit relevant, as from the pictures it was ONLY the window areas and frames that caught fire, with curtains adding to it.

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Panels a few mm thick wouldn't catch fire like at Grenfell, whereas 100mm/150mm thick blocks of inflammable insulation that encased the building, would. Those type of blocks can be found up and down the country in houses.
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Old 07-05-2021, 13:57   #468
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Not the slightest bit relevant, as from the pictures it was ONLY the window areas and frames that caught fire, with curtains adding to it.

.
You’re making ridiculously strident statements based on a few photos taken from a safe distance. At this stage you have no more idea than anyone else how similar a situation this might be.
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Old 07-05-2021, 14:16   #469
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Not the slightest bit relevant, as from the pictures it was ONLY the window areas and frames that caught fire, with curtains adding to it.

Link
Panels a few mm thick wouldn't catch fire like at Grenfell, whereas 100mm/150mm thick blocks of inflammable insulation that encased the building, would. Those type of blocks can be found up and down the country in houses.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57022678
Quote:
According to residents, the building on fire was Block D of the New Providence Wharf Estate.

The development, owned by Irish company Ballymore, has 1,535 apartments across a number of buildings and houses a Radisson Blu hotel.

About 20% of Block D's façade features ACM PE cladding panels, which were found to be a key factor in the Grenfell Tower fire in 2017.

Work to replace the cladding was "under way" and the main contractor had been due to take possession of the site on Monday, according to Ballymore.
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Old 07-05-2021, 14:19   #470
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
You’re making ridiculously strident statements based on a few photos taken from a safe distance. At this stage you have no more idea than anyone else how similar a situation this might be.
There are a lot of unburnt set of curtains on the other windows. The only areas showing any damage are windows and balcony doors. The pictures show damage to only 3 flats. Those are known as FACTS.

If the panels at Grenfell had been made of napalm. they wouldn't have gone up like that. They were too thin. The fire risk of cladding is NOT spreading upwards, but of spreading DOWNWARDS from dripping. The advice on panels was to be careful of what was placed at the base of any building in case it also caught fire from dripping from the panels. According to the manufacturers the insulation is meant to be surrounded by non-combustible material to limit the spread of fire, between the insulation panels for each flat. Without that extra protection, the material was banned from use, here and the US, above a certain height. That height was determined by the reach of fire ladders and no other factor.

Some of us try to see beyond the pack of lies spread by the media, and do their own research on issues.


It looks like only ONE flat was badly damaged, with the rest of the appearance being soot. No spreading involved.

Last edited by nomadking; 07-05-2021 at 14:26.
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Old 07-05-2021, 14:27   #471
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
There are a lot of unburnt set of curtains on the other windows. The only areas showing any damage are windows and balcony doors. The pictures show damage to only 3 flats. Those are known as FACTS.


If the panels at Grenfell had been made of napalm. they wouldn't have gone up like that. They were too thin. The fire risk of cladding is NOT spreading upwards, but of spreading DOWNWARDS from dripping. The advice on panels was to be careful of what was placed at the base of any building in case it also caught fire from dripping from the panels. According to the manufacturers the insulation is meant to be surrounded by non-combustible material to limit the spread of fire, between the insulation panels for each flat. Without that extra protection, the material was banned from use, here and the US, above a certain height. That height was determined by the reach of fire ladders and no other factor.


Some of us try to see beyond the pack of lies spread by the media, and do their own research on issues.
In my experience, there’s a high correlation between randoms on the internet who claim to do their research, and those who haven’t a clue how to actually do research.

You have insufficient evidence to support your claims. That’s the only useful fact here.
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Old 07-05-2021, 14:27   #472
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
There are a lot of unburnt set of curtains on the other windows. The only areas showing any damage are windows and balcony doors. The pictures show damage to only 3 flats. Those are known as FACTS.

If the panels at Grenfell had been made of napalm. they wouldn't have gone up like that. They were too thin. The fire risk of cladding is NOT spreading upwards, but of spreading DOWNWARDS from dripping. The advice on panels was to be careful of what was placed at the base of any building in case it also caught fire from dripping from the panels. According to the manufacturers the insulation is meant to be surrounded by non-combustible material to limit the spread of fire, between the insulation panels for each flat. Without that extra protection, the material was banned from use, here and the US, above a certain height. That height was determined by the reach of fire ladders and no other factor.

Some of us try to see beyond the pack of lies spread by the media, and do their own research on issues.


It looks like only ONE flat was badly damaged, with the rest of the appearance being soot. No spreading involved.
https://www.thejournal.ie/grenfell-t...71900-Oct2019/

The inquiry report thought otherwise…

Quote:
THE GRENFELL TOWER cladding did not comply with building regulations and was the “principal” reason for the fire’s rapid and “profoundly shocking” spread, the inquiry report said.

Once the fire had taken hold of the building’s exterior, it was “inevitable” that it would find its way inside, Sir Martin Moore-Bick said.

The judge said he still found the rapid engulfment of the tower by flames “profoundly shocking” despite having viewed footage many times over.

He concluded that the “principal reason” the flames shot up the building at such speed was the combustible aluminium composite material (ACM) cladding with polyethylene cores which acted as a “source of fuel”.
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Old 07-05-2021, 14:43   #473
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
In my experience, there’s a high correlation between randoms on the internet who claim to do their research, and those who haven’t a clue how to actually do research.

You have insufficient evidence to support your claims. That’s the only useful fact here.
correlation is not causation

almost every thread on this forum becomes a flame war ( see what I did there )
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Old 07-05-2021, 15:07   #474
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
In my experience, there’s a high correlation between randoms on the internet who claim to do their research, and those who haven’t a clue how to actually do research.

You have insufficient evidence to support your claims. That’s the only useful fact here.
I have plenty of evidence of the OFFICIAL kind. Certainly NOT from the opinion of a random person and most definitely not from the media.
I have previously supplied all the evidence, and of course it's ignored because it doesn't fit the bogus agenda.
Are you denying that the cladding panels aren't thin(ie a few mm)?

Are you denying the insulation at Grenfell was only rated for use above a certain height, if and only if, surrounded by non-combustible material? Are you denying that the insulation is used on smaller buildings?

Did I make up the 100mm and 150mm thickness of insulation or did I look up the planning documents? Did I make up the restrictions on use of the insulation, or did I look up the manufacturers advice and that of the Royal Institute of British Architects(RIBA)? Take a wild guess.

---------- Post added at 15:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
https://www.thejournal.ie/grenfell-t...71900-Oct2019/

The inquiry report thought otherwise…
That WOULDN'T explain how any fire reached back into other flats bridging an air gap(between cladding and insulation), 100mm of insulation, and concrete walls.
Quote:
But it wasn't just the cladding.


Celotex, which made the thick insulation boards used, said their product, when used with cement boards, would be "class zero throughout".

The point being, cement boards WEREN'T used, therefore the insulation was a fire risk.
The designers would've seen the manufacturers comment of it being the only similar insulation material legally allowed in building above a certain height. It was listed as such on the Royal Institute of British Architects(RIBA) website. I checked it at the time. The designers didn't look any further into what design restrictions came with that claim from the manufacturers.


In this recent example there appears to have been NO or little spreading of the fire.
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Old 07-05-2021, 15:12   #475
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I thought all buildings with that cladding now had to have a “waking watch”, someone on the premises actively managing the premises 24 hours a day. A half-hour delay in the alarm being raised is concerning.
And when you consider how much fire marshalls cost each day I'd say it's more than concerning it's darn right negligent
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Old 07-05-2021, 15:45   #476
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
I have plenty of evidence of the OFFICIAL kind. Certainly NOT from the <shouty internet rant snipped>
Unless you have some relevant qualifications or at the very least local knowledge, you don’t have a blind clue what happened, and shouting otherwise on the internet won’t convince anyone.

You don’t know.

I don’t know.

My only advantage over you is that I haven’t accused anyone of having a “bogus agenda”. That you have done so, firmly locates you in the category “internet conspiracy nut who should probably just be ignored”.

So you feel free to continue your fevered pseudo-research. I’ll await the views of actual experts.
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Old 07-05-2021, 16:04   #477
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
I have plenty of evidence of the OFFICIAL kind. Certainly NOT from the opinion of a random person and most definitely not from the media.
I have previously supplied all the evidence, and of course it's ignored because it doesn't fit the bogus agenda.
Are you denying that the cladding panels aren't thin(ie a few mm)?

Are you denying the insulation at Grenfell was only rated for use above a certain height, if and only if, surrounded by non-combustible material? Are you denying that the insulation is used on smaller buildings?

Did I make up the 100mm and 150mm thickness of insulation or did I look up the planning documents? Did I make up the restrictions on use of the insulation, or did I look up the manufacturers advice and that of the Royal Institute of British Architects(RIBA)? Take a wild guess.

---------- Post added at 15:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:49 ----------


That WOULDN'T explain how any fire reached back into other flats bridging an air gap(between cladding and insulation), 100mm of insulation, and concrete walls.
The point being, cement boards WEREN'T used, therefore the insulation was a fire risk.
The designers would've seen the manufacturers comment of it being the only similar insulation material legally allowed in building above a certain height. It was listed as such on the Royal Institute of British Architects(RIBA) website. I checked it at the time. The designers didn't look any further into what design restrictions came with that claim from the manufacturers.


In this recent example there appears to have been NO or little spreading of the fire.
https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insi...bishment-67309
Quote:
Insulation used around windows was also combustible, despite designs requiring it to be made of mineral wool.

Including barriers that prevent fire spreading in the gaps between insulation and cladding panels is a requirement of building regulations. However, it was not done well at Grenfell.

In particular, barriers above windows were not part of the designs as required, and this mistake was not picked up by anyone who checked the designs.
https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news...re-began-56882
Quote:
According to the report submitted to the inquiry by Professor Luke Bisby, an expert witness, gaps in these windows allowed the fire to spread from the kitchen where it started onto the cladding and then up the side of the building.

… Mr Kebede also discussed the new heating system that was installed in the tower as part of the same refurbishment.

The pipes, another expert witness Dr Barbara Lane revealed this week, had incomplete fire safety protection at the time of the fire.

In addition, as Inside Housing revealed on the day of the fire, the installation of these pipes involved the temporary removal of safeguards in the floors intended to prevent the spread of fire from floor to floor.
From the inquiry report.

https://assets.grenfelltowerinquiry....volume%201.pdf
Quote:
The progress of the fire after it had entered the cladding is considered in Chapter 23. Once the fire had escaped from Flat 16, it spread rapidly up the east face of the tower. It then spread around the top of the building in both directions and down the sides until the advancing flame fronts converged on the west face near the south-west corner, enveloping the entire building in under three hours. I find that:

a. The principal reason why the flames spread so rapidly up, down and around the building was the presence of the aluminium composite material (ACM) rainscreen panels with polyethylene cores, which acted as a source of fuel. The principal mechanism for the spread of the fire horizontally and downwards was the melting and dripping of burning polyethylene from the crown and from the spandrel and column panels, which ignited fires lower down the building. Those fires then travelled back up the building, thereby allowing the flame front to progress diagonally across each face of the tower.

b. The presence of polyisocyanurate (PIR) and phenolic foam insulation boards behind the ACM panels, and perhaps components of the window surrounds, contributed to the rate and extent of vertical flame spread.

c. The crown was primarily responsible for the spread of the fire horizontally, and the columns were a principal route of downwards fire spread.

The loss of compartmentation and the spread of fire through the tower
2 .14 In Chapter 24 I consider the evidence relating to the penetration of the building by fire and smoke and the rapid loss of compartmentation. The fire on the outside of the building quickly entered many flats and smoke spread rapidly through the interior of the building. As a result, effective compartmentation was lost at an early stage. Compartmentation failed because:

a. The intensity of the heat was such that the glass in the windows inevitably failed, allowing the fire to penetrate flats.

b. Extractor fan units in the kitchens had a propensity to deform and become dislodged, providing a point of entry.

c. A number of key fire protection measures inside the tower failed. Although some fire doors held back the smoke, others did not. Some were left open and failed to close because they lacked effective self-closing devices; others were broken down by firefighters or wedged open with firefighting equipment.
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Old 07-05-2021, 16:58   #478
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Re: Huge fire at West London tower block

I made the point at the time, that the purge panels(from the plans) allowed easy access to/from the outside. The point being it was still a large distance from the cladding to the inside of the building. The fire would've been unable to spread back inside the building unless there was something else in that large distance that could catch fire, ie THE INSULATION, which was mentioned in the report.

It could be seen at the time that the fire spread OUTSIDE the building, in an upwards and sideways manner. Regardless of any limited spreading via the cladding, the insulation would've spread it anyway. There is a reason the manufacturers specified that the insulation had to be surrounded by non-combustible material, eg cement panels.


From a design point of view, if you had looked at the listing of potential materials on the RIBA website, then you would've seen an entry for the insulation material used, that said it was the only one of its type that could be used in high buildings. It didn't go into any further details, and it was more expensive than the insulation originally in the plans(yes I checked plans and prices at the time)
Quote:
b. The presence of polyisocyanurate (PIR) and phenolic foam insulation boards behind the ACM panels, and perhaps components of the window surrounds, contributed to the rate and extent of vertical flame spread.
That stuff was 100mm and 150mm thick, compared to a few mm for the cladding. Which is going to burn more ferociously and for longer?
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