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Coronavirus
View Poll Results: When you become eligible for the Covid Vaccine, would you take it?
Yes 65 85.53%
No 5 6.58%
Unsure 6 7.89%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 29-01-2021, 10:45   #3181
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
That would mean the Belgian AZ plant might have had little choice other than to send it to the UK, if that is what has been going on. If it can be stored longer term, why should AZ be expected to store it until the EU finally approves it?
If it can be stored longer term, then best endeavours may mean storing it for a few months.

The only redress I can think of here is that whatever quantity of vaccines were exported from the EU is replaced with an equivalent exported from outside the EU into the EU. Perhaps the raid on the Belgium factory was to establish the scale of the exports and determine if it was significant or not.

But I'm not a procurement lawyer nor have I seen the AstraZeneca contract so this is pretty speculative. I would encourage AstraZeneca to allow the contract to be published.
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Old 29-01-2021, 11:16   #3182
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Re: Coronavirus

Careful you don’t disappear down a rabbit hole here. There’s absolutely no evidence of vaccine from AstraZeneca in Belgium being sent to the UK, and nor is it at all likely to have occurred. Unopened multi-dose vials of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine have a shelf life of 6 months, and that’s one of the reasons they took a chance and started manufacturing it in the UK many weeks before trials concluded it was safe and effective. If AZ was working to its best effort it will have been manufacturing as much vaccine as possible to be ready to meet the EU order as soon as it was approved.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...eca-reg174.pdf
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Old 29-01-2021, 11:31   #3183
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
If it can be stored longer term, then best endeavours may mean storing it for a few months.

The only redress I can think of here is that whatever quantity of vaccines were exported from the EU is replaced with an equivalent exported from outside the EU into the EU. Perhaps the raid on the Belgium factory was to establish the scale of the exports and determine if it was significant or not.

But I'm not a procurement lawyer nor have I seen the AstraZeneca contract so this is pretty speculative. I would encourage AstraZeneca to allow the contract to be published.
Why would it matter what the yields were, they had no reason to lie about it. They could've handed it over to the EU and said "you store it".


This suggests it can be stored for months.
Quote:
The Wrexham plant is able to produce around 300 million doses of the vaccine each year, and had been producing 150,000 phials a day for months ahead of the roll out the vaccine across the UK at the end of 2020.
The CP Pharmaceuticals lab is carrying out the "fill and finish" stage of the manufacturing process. This involves dispensing the vaccine into vials ready for it to be sent out across the country.
.

---------- Post added at 11:31 ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Careful you don’t disappear down a rabbit hole here. There’s absolutely no evidence of vaccine from AstraZeneca in Belgium being sent to the UK, and nor is it at all likely to have occurred. Unopened multi-dose vials of the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine have a shelf life of 6 months, and that’s one of the reasons they took a chance and started manufacturing it in the UK many weeks before trials concluded it was safe and effective. If AZ was working to its best effort it will have been manufacturing as much vaccine as possible to be ready to meet the EU order as soon as it was approved.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...eca-reg174.pdf
I was trying to offer what seemed like a plausible explanation for the EUs whinging. The output from the EU plants has to be stored somewhere, no matter what the yields were.
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Old 29-01-2021, 11:45   #3184
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Re: Coronavirus

The EU is whinging because of their dithering and consequential egg-on-face.

If we get to see the contracts, then the legal boffs can tell us what they think the EU's chances are in litigation or taking stock from the UK. But the bottom line is their dithering has jeopardised their members' health.
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Old 29-01-2021, 12:13   #3185
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
The EU is whinging because of their dithering and consequential egg-on-face.

If we get to see the contracts, then the legal boffs can tell us what they think the EU's chances are in litigation or taking stock from the UK. But the bottom line is their dithering has jeopardised their members' health.
In the event of a European judge ruling that AstraZeneca must remove vaccine product from the UK to supply the EU, that's the point at which HMG can add the vaccine to the export ban schedule.

The EU may not believe in first come first served (at least, not when it didn't get there first) but the logic of greatest need shows pretty clearly that we have had the hardest time controlling the pandemic with social measures and must therefore rely most heavily on the vaccine.
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Old 29-01-2021, 12:18   #3186
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Re: Coronavirus

As the new vaccine (Novavax) is 89% effective and can keep pace with the new, more deadly, mutations, I wonder if they will eventually go back and vaccinate those already injected with the less effective vaccines?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-h...n-end-schools/
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Old 29-01-2021, 12:24   #3187
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Re: Coronavirus

The EU have released a reacted version of the AZ contract.
Link
Page 11 para 5.4, Sneaky of them to talk about EU plants and non-EU plants, but include the UK in the definition of EU manufacturing plants.
Page 12 para 6.2, Also sneaky to say that AZ would not be in breech of the agreement if they were unable to deliver because of competing agreements, but only if those competing agreements were with the EU itself.
Page 23 para 13.1(e), It also says AZ are under no obligation to anybody else to fulfil their agreements, until AFTER the "Initial Europe Doses"(300m) of them has been fulfilled. They are trying to hijack a whole years worth of UK production.

Last edited by nomadking; 29-01-2021 at 12:32.
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Old 29-01-2021, 12:47   #3188
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
The EU have released a reacted version of the AZ contract.
Link
Page 11 para 5.4, Sneaky of them to talk about EU plants and non-EU plants, but include the UK in the definition of EU manufacturing plants.
Page 12 para 6.2, Also sneaky to say that AZ would not be in breech of the agreement if they were unable to deliver because of competing agreements, but only if those competing agreements were with the EU itself.
Page 23 para 13.1(e), It also says AZ are under no obligation to anybody else to fulfil their agreements, until AFTER the "Initial Europe Doses"(300m) of them has been fulfilled. They are trying to hijack a whole years worth of UK production.
Yeah ... that's not going to fly.

Section 5.4 is very clearly there to favour production inside the EU rather than outside it, and to prevent AstraZeneca producing EU vaccine outside of the EU, without first getting written permission from the EU. That clause includes the UK within the definition of the EU, purely to exempt AstraZeneca from needing EU permission to use the facilities there. The inclusion of the UK within the definition of EU is explicitly limited to section 5.4. There's nothing in 5.4 that gives the EU first call on vaccine produced in the UK.

---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ----------

Pro tip by the way, if you're trying to search the PDF, the only mention of the UK is on one of only three pages in the document that are photocopy images rather than searchable electronic text. If I was a cynical person I might even find that a bit suspicious.
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Old 29-01-2021, 12:52   #3189
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
The EU have released a reacted version of the AZ contract.
Link
Page 11 para 5.4, Sneaky of them to talk about EU plants and non-EU plants, but include the UK in the definition of EU manufacturing plants.
Page 12 para 6.2, Also sneaky to say that AZ would not be in breech of the agreement if they were unable to deliver because of competing agreements, but only if those competing agreements were with the EU itself.
Page 23 para 13.1(e), It also says AZ are under no obligation to anybody else to fulfil their agreements, until AFTER the "Initial Europe Doses"(300m) of them has been fulfilled. They are trying to hijack a whole years worth of UK production.
The "best efforts" definition is as follows (my bold characters):

Quote:
1.9. “Best Reasonable Efforts” means

(a) in the case of AstraZeneca, the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake or use in the development and manufacture of a Vaccine at the relevant stage of development or commercialization having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world but taking into account efficacy and safety; and

(b) in the case of the Commission and the Participating Member States, the
activities and degree of effort that governments would undertake or use in
supporting their contractor in the development of the Vaccine having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic which is resulting in serious public health issues, restrictions on personal freedoms and economic impact, across the world.
From my layman's point of view. the EU would be relying on what I highlighted in red and AZ would refute in terms of the stage of "commercialization" - as in the EU being 3 months behind the UK.

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Old 29-01-2021, 13:21   #3190
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Yeah ... that's not going to fly.

Section 5.4 is very clearly there to favour production inside the EU rather than outside it, and to prevent AstraZeneca producing EU vaccine outside of the EU, without first getting written permission from the EU. That clause includes the UK within the definition of the EU, purely to exempt AstraZeneca from needing EU permission to use the facilities there. The inclusion of the UK within the definition of EU is explicitly limited to section 5.4. There's nothing in 5.4 that gives the EU first call on vaccine produced in the UK.

---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ----------

Pro tip by the way, if you're trying to search the PDF, the only mention of the UK is on one of only three pages in the document that are photocopy images rather than searchable electronic text. If I was a cynical person I might even find that a bit suspicious.
There doesn't need to be other references to UK, as the UK is included in the definition of EU manufacturing sites.
Quote:
13. Representations and Warranties.
13.1. AstraZeneca. AstraZeneca represents, warrants and covenants to the
Commission and the Participating Member States that:
...(e) it is not under any obligation, contractual or otherwise, to any Person or third party in respect of the Initial Europe Doses or that conflicts with or is inconsistent
in any material respect
with the terms of this Agreement or that would impede the
complete fulfillment of its obligations under this Agreement
;
Hence the EU stance of
Quote:
"AstraZeneca has also explicitly assured us in this contract that no other obligations would prevent the contract from being fulfilled," she said.
EU officials say AstraZeneca has been asked to send some doses manufactured in the UK to the continent to make up the shortfall, but the company said on Wednesday that its contract for UK supplies prevented this.
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Old 29-01-2021, 13:36   #3191
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
There doesn't need to be other references to UK, as the UK is included in the definition of EU manufacturing sites.
Hence the EU stance of
Incorrect.

The UK is included in a clause designed to govern where AstraZeneca is *allowed* to produce vaccine for the EU, without further written permission from the EU. AZ is obliged to use its best effort to make the vaccine inside the EU, not outside it. It is a clause designed to ensure they didn't just go off and make it all in a factory in America, or Brazil or wherever.

Furthermore, Section 5.4 limits the definition of EU as including UK, to itself only. It is absolutely explicit on that point. The purpose of the clause is to permit AZ to choose to use UK production facilities without needing additional permission first. The clause does not have the intention of naming existing UK facilities, that are already engaged in fulfilling another contract, as being co-opted to the EU contract. That is why AstraZeneca has in good faith given assurances that it has no other commitments that stand in the way of the fulfilling of the EU contract - because there aren't any.

The EU may bleat that it doesn't believe in first come, first served, but if it comes to having this contract read in court, the prior existence of a contract with HMG, committing UK facilities to UK production, will be of material interest.
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Old 29-01-2021, 13:37   #3192
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
As the new vaccine (Novavax) is 89% effective and can keep pace with the new, more deadly, mutations, I wonder if they will eventually go back and vaccinate those already injected with the less effective vaccines?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-h...n-end-schools/
This is the info I received from Novavax on this
Quote:
People who have received placebo are advised to have the approved vaccine; currently those who have received Novavax are advised not to receive another COVID vaccine because of lack of safety information.
Not enough testing done at this time to make an informed judgement, so probably not...
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Old 29-01-2021, 13:44   #3193
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Re: Coronavirus

Attached is a fully searchable (I think) version of the APA.


Attached Files
File Type: pdf APA_-_AstraZeneca.pdf (1.17 MB, 5 views)
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Old 29-01-2021, 13:53   #3194
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Re: Coronavirus

§5.4 could make things awkward for the UK because AZ signed up to the definition in Schedule A.

Quote:
5.4. Manufacturing Sites. AstraZeneca shall use its Best Reasonable Efforts to
manufacture the Vaccine at manufacturing sites located within the EU (which, for the
purpose of this Section 5.4 only shall include the United Kingdom) and may manufacture the Vaccine in non-EU facilities, if appropriate, to accelerate supply of the Vaccine in Europe; provided, that AstraZeneca shall provide prior written notice of such non-EU manufacturing facilities to the Commission which shall include an explanation for such determination to use non-EU manufacturing facilities. If AstraZeneca is unable to deliver on its intention to manufacture the Initial Europe Doses and/or Optional Doses under this Agreement in the EU, the Commission or the Participating Member States may present to AstraZeneca, CMOs within the EU capable of manufacturing the Vaccine Doses, and AstraZeneca shall use its Best Reasonable Efforts to contract with such proposed CMOs to increase the available manufacturing capacity within the EU. The manufacturing site planning is set out in Schedule A.
However, the bit highlighted in purple suggests a different approach from legal action that would let the UK manufacturing off the hook.
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Old 29-01-2021, 14:05   #3195
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Incorrect.

The UK is included in a clause designed to govern where AstraZeneca is *allowed* to produce vaccine for the EU, without further written permission from the EU. AZ is obliged to use its best effort to make the vaccine inside the EU, not outside it. It is a clause designed to ensure they didn't just go off and make it all in a factory in America, or Brazil or wherever.

Furthermore, Section 5.4 limits the definition of EU as including UK, to itself only. It is absolutely explicit on that point. The purpose of the clause is to permit AZ to choose to use UK production facilities without needing additional permission first. The clause does not have the intention of naming existing UK facilities, that are already engaged in fulfilling another contract, as being co-opted to the EU contract. That is why AstraZeneca has in good faith given assurances that it has no other commitments that stand in the way of the fulfilling of the EU contract - because there aren't any.

The EU may bleat that it doesn't believe in first come, first served, but if it comes to having this contract read in court, the prior existence of a contract with HMG, committing UK facilities to UK production, will be of material interest.
Both 5.1 and 5.4 refer to "Best Reasonable Efforts" to manufacture in the EU. 5.4 is labelled "Manufacturing sites" and includes the UK as being included in the definition of an "EU manufacturing site". You can't really have a different definition of "EU manufacturing site" in one paragraph, to the rest of the document.

13.1 is where AZ said no other agreement "would impede the complete fulfillment of its obligations under this Agreement;". Supplying the UK and other countries, effectively "impedes" fulfilling the EU order.
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