Hamas Israel War - Page 9

richard-john56 · 10-10-2023, 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Yes, because Uncle Joe Stalin was an absolute saint.

Plus the child killer Putin.

Pierre · 10-10-2023, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99

I am not sure why you are calling Hamas "heroic freedom fighters", they are disgusting, absolute vermin.

Well you didn’t answer my first question………….And now you’re trying to be cute.

ianch99 · 10-10-2023, 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well you didn’t answer my first question………….And now you’re trying to be cute.

I am debating the subject in hand. If you condemn the killing of women & children in Gaza, say so. If you don't, say so.

I would like to stick to the subject matter in hand if you don't mind. My fear is that due to the lack of a moderating actor in this region, this could escalate way out of control. The US have sent a carrier battle group to the Middle East with the declared intent to aid Israel if required. Scary stuff ...

**Chris** · 10-10-2023, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99

How about "Religion is the root of a lot of evil"?

I think it’s fair to say that humans will lie, steal and kill in pursuit of their interests. Their interests could be food, property or a belief system around which their society is organised. That could be a religious belief system, but Joseph Stalin is likely to have killed more than any other and he was following an avowedly atheistic philosophy. The common denominator isn’t religion, it’s humans.

Pierre · 10-10-2023, 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99

I am debating the subject in hand. If you condemn the killing of women & children in Gaza, say so. If you don't, say so.

I condemn the killing of anyone.

I was commenting on the cause and effect. I am not interested in the history of the region in this in particular instance, because that’s a rabbit hole used to deflect.

The fact is on Saturday, terrorists invaded Israel and slaughtered hundreds of innocents, executed children in front of their families, raped young women and paraded their corpses, beheaded babies and toddlers, gunned down old ladies and burned children alive, if reports on the last claim are accurate.

There are verifiable pictures of ordinary Palestinians celebrating this.

So, if you’re asking me if I condemn Israel indiscriminately bombing Gaza, I do.

Are they indiscriminately bombing Gaza, I don’t know they may be targeting known Hamas buildings. Hamas hide amongst the innocents such is their cowardice.

Would Israel be doing this if Hamas hadn’t attacked?……no

In this instance who is to blame?……Hamas

Is Israel justified in retaliating? …….yes

That’s quite simple. Is a baby dying via an air strike or being beheaded any different, it’s still a dead baby right? Yes, it is ****ing different and if you can’t work out the difference you’re not right in the head.

Quote:

I would like to stick to the subject matter in hand if you don't mind. My fear is that due to the lack of a moderating actor in this region, this could escalate way out of control. The US have sent a carrier battle group to the Middle East with the declared intent to aid Israel if required. Scary stuff ...

No, absolutely predictable. Who would be your “moderating actor”?

1andrew1 · 10-10-2023, 21:18

Only moderating actor I can think of is Egypt.

**Paul** · 10-10-2023, 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99

I am not sure why you are calling Hamas "heroic freedom fighters", they are disgusting, absolute vermin.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm.

jfman · 10-10-2023, 21:23

Qatar are already acting as an intermediary.

The US carrier group won’t get involved their function is to deter others. Israel have more than enough capability by themselves to pursue their own military ends. The US have no reason to participate and be tarred with war crimes.

Pierre · 10-10-2023, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Only moderating actor I can think of is Egypt.

Yes, I’m sure a previous state that tried to destroy Israel will be very moderate.

---------- Post added at 21:36 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman

Qatar are already acting as an intermediary.

The US carrier group won’t get involved their function is to deter others. Israel have more than enough capability by themselves to pursue their own military ends. The US have no reason to participate and be tarred with war crimes.

Agreed, they are a backstop.

1andrew1 · 10-10-2023, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

Yes, I’m sure a previous state that tried to destroy Israel will be very.

Times have changed since then.
https://english.elpais.com/internati...n-efforts.html

jfman · 10-10-2023, 21:57

Whoever moderates, whenever it reaches that stage, has two ‘straightforward’ goals. The return of hostages and a ceasefire. Their own views will be of little consequence.

Whoever it is will be a probable front for the US anyway, with no American politicians wanting to risk looking soft to voters who want to see unqualified backing of Israel. We are only 12 months out from an election.

Before someone inevitably asks why handing over those responsible for planning or carrying out the attacks by Hamas isn’t in my criteria I doubt there will be many left and Israel can handle that themselves later.

ianch99 · 10-10-2023, 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

That’s quite simple. Is a baby dying via an air strike or being beheaded any different, it’s still a dead baby right? Yes, it is ****ing different and if you can’t work out the difference you’re not right in the head

I had thought we could have a rational debate but was wrong. If you are making this distinction, let's leave this here.

---------- Post added at 23:10 ---------- Previous post was at 23:04 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

I think it’s fair to say that humans will lie, steal and kill in pursuit of their interests. Their interests could be food, property or a belief system around which their society is organised. That could be a religious belief system, but Joseph Stalin is likely to have killed more than any other and he was following an avowedly atheistic philosophy. The common denominator isn’t religion, it’s humans.

You are dancing around the problem here. The underpinning of the immoral behaviour on both sides is their respective religions. This really is just fact. No ifs or buts. You can try and build a straw man that these two protagonists would behave the same without their respective faiths but this would be just denial.

---------- Post added at 23:11 ---------- Previous post was at 23:10 ----------

Interesting:

https://twitter.com/lisang/status/1711824708746838214

Quote:

The Israeli media now confirming that the gov't did receive clear warnings from Egyptian intelligence about the imminent attack that occurred on October 7. The PM's office initially issued a flat denial after the first report, but then did an about face and admitted it.

Pierre · 10-10-2023, 23:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99

I had thought we could have a rational debate but was wrong. If you are making this distinction, let's leave this here.

I’m having a rational debate. You can point out what is irrational. If you are unwilling or unable, to debate, that’s up to you.

ianch99 · 10-10-2023, 23:16

Also:

https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/statu...99837472293172

Quote:

BREAKING: The United States is considering deploying a second aircraft carrier, USS Dwight D. Eisenhower, as the USS Gerald R. Ford Carrier Strike Group is set to arrive near Israel.

The reasoning, according to a U.S. defense official, is to "deter regional powers from joining the war." - WSJ

The officials are deciding whether they want to have USS Eisenhower relieving the Ford group or keep both groups together.

The USS Gerald R. Ford Carrier Strike Group is arriving to the area near Israel on Tuesday.

---------- Post added at 23:16 ---------- Previous post was at 23:12 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

I’m having a rational debate. You can point out what is irrational. If you are unwilling or unable, to debate, that’s up to you.

I'm sorry, I don't see this as rational:

Quote:

Is a baby dying via an air strike or being beheaded any different, it’s still a dead baby right? Yes, it is ****ing different and if you can’t work out the difference you’re not right in the head

I guess I am just old school. YMMV ...

Pierre · 10-10-2023, 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianch99

I'm sorry, I don't see this as rational:

I guess I am just old school. YMMV ...

That’s probably one of the most rational.

As the terrorist sympathisers on this site always try to equate Israel’s actions and Hamas’s actions as canceling each other out. There’s numerous examples on this thread if you have a very brief look.

The argument that one side killed babies, but so did the other, so they’re both morally the same.

An Israeli soldier firing a strike on Gaza and collaterally killing a child is awful and terrible, but it takes a whole different direction if that person personally beheads that child with his own hands.

I don’t think you can equivocate the two, but happy to hear from anyone that can.