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Old 03-04-2024, 00:20   #1306
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Re: Hamas Israel War

No, there are not "two" theories.
For starters, you just mentioned three in your post.

The IDF have not said anything that I can find other than they will investigate.
Quote:
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said it was conducting a "thorough review" into what it called a "tragic incident".
Perhaps you missed that they are waging a war, and in wars, mistakes, sadly, get made.
Quote:
Unfortunately, in the last 24 hours there was a tragic case of our forces unintentionally hitting innocent people in the Gaza Strip.
Quote:
It happens in war, we check it to the end, we are in contact with the governments, and we will do everything so that this thing does not happen again.
Every mistake isnt a deliberate plot, if you have proof otherwise, feel free to inform us all (and the respective governments).
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Old 03-04-2024, 03:13   #1307
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
Straws and grasping springs to mind.
Killing a few aid workers isnt going to starve the population, it is, however, going to alienate their diminishing support. However defiant they may be in public, they need to keep their allies on board, not to mention their own people, who I seriously doubt think killing aid workers is a great idea. As I understand it, their PM is already under pressure.
Wonder where those straws came from, oh yes

9/10/23 Yoav Gallant defence minister speaking on behalf of the Israeli government said Israel will impose a complete seige on Gaza no electricity, food, water, no gas it's all closed

12/10/23 Israel Katz energy minister no water or trucks will enter until the abducted are released

1/2/24 Benny Ganz we can consider reducing the scope of supplies as part of a mechanism to free the hostages

It's not a conspiracy theory if they tell you that's what they are doing

27/2/24 Michael Fakhiri UN special rapporteur Israel is deliberately starving civilians and should be held accountablefor war crimes and genocide
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Old 03-04-2024, 08:55   #1308
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Re: Hamas Israel War

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Originally Posted by Paul View Post
So you think they killed them on purpose ? To what end exactly ?
The term shooting at anything that moves seems to fit.

Damm the consequences
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Old 03-04-2024, 09:10   #1309
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1701-e View Post
The term shooting at anything that moves seems to fit.

Damm the consequences
Quite.

I missed the detail last night but when I got thinking about it “any armed man” is a target when the rule of law has broken down in Gaza and undoubtedly people will be carrying weapons to protect themselves and their families.

It doesn’t have to be a conspiracy theory for Israel to be condemned - there’s enough detail, and facts, in their own statements to do so. Being “at war” is a state Israel has absolutely chosen to put themselves in at this stage, against now universal calls to stop.

It doesn’t exempt them from their duties to protect civilians (including aid eorkers). The “mistake” was entirely avoidable if they simply gave more weight to the aid workers lives in their decision making. Allowing a single armed man, who may or may not be a terrorist, to flee is unlikely to impact significantly on the future security of Israel or its citizens. As it stands there’s no actual confirmation they hit this target regardless of whether he was a legitimate target or not.

Sadly, had these aid workers been from the far east or Africa we’d have seen little of the condemnation and none of the apology. It’d be business as usual for the self styled “most moral army in the world”.

Last edited by jfman; 03-04-2024 at 09:17.
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Old 03-04-2024, 09:12   #1310
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
No, there are not "two" theories.
For starters, you just mentioned three in your post.

The IDF have not said anything that I can find other than they will investigate.

Perhps you missed that they are waging a war, and in wars, mistakes, sadly, get made.

Every mistake isnt a deliberate plot, if you have proof otherwise, feel free to inform us all (and the respective governments).
As I said before, being very generous, one aid vehicle precision-bombed might be a mistake. But three aid vehicles targeted? Even if we uncritically accept Netanyahu's line of it being a mistake, I make that three mistakes and not one. And three mistakes in a demilitarised zone in which the aid workers let the IDF know of their route beforehand can't be explained away too easily.

Context is everything so let's look at some of that.
  • Between the beginning of the war in October and March 20 at least 196 humanitarian workers had been killed in the occupied Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank.This is nearly three times the death toll recorded in any single conflict in a year, per Jamie McGoldrick, the UN’s humanitarian co-ordinator for the occupied territories.
  • Our foreign secretary David Cameron requesting that Israel open its borders to allow aid in as the country was seen to be making it hard for aid to enter.
  • The US, Israel's biggest ally, has snubbed Israel to build a pier to enable food deliveries to Gaza.
At best, the IDF places very little value on the lives of aid workers. At its worst, it's more deliberate. Neither's a good look and neither will contribute to long-term peace in the region.

If you're searching for conspiracy theorists, there's richer pickings on other threads on this Forum.
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Old 03-04-2024, 10:19   #1311
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1701-e View Post
The term shooting at anything that moves seems to fit.

Damm the consequences
Seems a good fit, goes with the sniping of children. They hit the first vehicle and when the wounded were moved to a second vehicle, this was then hit. They then went on to hit the 3rd vehicle as they tried to escape. One or more of these vehicles were marked on their roof as Aid vehicles.

Haaretz is reporting (you may need to activate Google translate for this):

The IDF fired three times at the aid convoy, the target of the attack leaving it before it set off

Quote:
The Central World Kitchen convoy was attacked on suspicion that an armed Hamas operative had joined the foreign fighters, but he remained in the warehouse from which the trip began. According to security sources, after the first missile hit, the passengers tried to switch to another vehicle and were attacked a second and third time
More context, again from Haaretz:

Israeli Army Sources: Gaza Aid Workers Killed Because 'IDF Officers on the Ground Do What They Want'

Quote:
The sources accused the IDF's Southern Command of trying to deflect blame for the incident in Deir al-Balah, in which seven employees of World Central Kitchen were killed. A source in the intelligence branch said the command "knows exactly what the cause of the attack was – in Gaza, everyone does as he pleases."
This was not a mistake.
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Old 03-04-2024, 11:16   #1312
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
You can't actually believe that so I'll assume you're just trolling as usual
No, it’s got nothing to do with what I believe

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul View Post
As I understand it, their PM is already under pressure.
He is, and undoubtedly will step down after the military action is concluded. I doubt very much it will be before.

---------- Post added at 11:16 ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
the IDF places very little value on the lives of aid workers. At its worst, it's more deliberate.
Do you think the US army placed little value on the lives of British soldiers they mistakenly killed and injured in the numerous blue on blue attacks that happened in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It was a mistake, nothing more, nothing less
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Old 03-04-2024, 11:25   #1313
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post

Do you think the US army placed little value on the lives of British soldiers they mistakenly killed and injured in the numerous blue on blue attacks that happened in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It was a mistake, nothing more, nothing less
It's a 'mistake' that happened because they have such little regard for where and whom they're targeting.

This was a previously designated safe route that they told the IDF they would be using and they had symbols on their cars. When they hit one and fled to the 2nd one they were hit again, those who survived were killed when their third and final car was also bombed.

This isn't a case of friendly fire. This is an organisation that did everything right, everything they were told to do, and was bombed by a control room that seemed to have no checks or restraints from just randomly firing at anything and anyone that moves.

It's not the first time aid workers have been killed either.
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Old 03-04-2024, 12:01   #1314
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
It's a 'mistake' that happened because they have such little regard for where and whom they're targeting.

This was a previously designated safe route that they told the IDF they would be using and they had symbols on their cars. When they hit one and fled to the 2nd one they were hit again, those who survived were killed when their third and final car was also bombed.

This isn't a case of friendly fire. This is an organisation that did everything right, everything they were told to do, and was bombed by a control room that seemed to have no checks or restraints from just randomly firing at anything and anyone that moves.

It's not the first time aid workers have been killed either.
They’re in a war zone, their safety cannot be guaranteed.

If a highly trained and sophisticated military can shoot and kill their ally, another well trained and sophisticated military, what makes you think it couldn’t happen in Gaza.

If they mistakenly thought it was Hamas, they will mistakenly fire upon it.

It was a mistake, may be grossly negligent, but you have to go a long way to call it deliberate.
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Old 03-04-2024, 12:19   #1315
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
It was a mistake, nothing more, nothing less
If you're buying uncritically into Netanyahu's mistake line, you at least need to do the maths.
It would be three mistakes not one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
They’re in a war zone, their safety cannot be guaranteed.
It was classified as a deconflicted zone not a war zone.
Quote:
WCK said seven aid workers had died even though they were travelling in a “deconflicted zone in two armoured cars branded with the WCK logo” and another vehicle.

“Despite co-ordinating movements with the IDF, the convoy was hit as it was leaving the Deir al-Balah warehouse,” the group added.
https://www.ft.com/content/aa309a9c-...7-e40ba046776e

Last edited by 1andrew1; 03-04-2024 at 12:25.
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Old 03-04-2024, 13:10   #1316
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
They’re in a war zone, their safety cannot be guaranteed.

If a highly trained and sophisticated military can shoot and kill their ally, another well trained and sophisticated military, what makes you think it couldn’t happen in Gaza.

If they mistakenly thought it was Hamas, they will mistakenly fire upon it.

It was a mistake, may be grossly negligent, but you have to go a long way to call it deliberate.
The IDF’s rules of engagement are lax - recklessly so. I used to have to sit through and report on inquests, so many that the coroner’s description of an accident has remained with me to this day: ‘the unforeseen consequences of a deliberate act’. At some point, the consequences of the IDF’s lax RoI stop being unforseeable.
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Old 03-04-2024, 13:31   #1317
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Israel has reached a horrifying milestone:

Gaza: Number of children killed higher than from four years of world conflict

Quote:
“This war is a war on children. It is a war on their childhood and their future,” said UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini, who described as “staggering” the latest Gaza health authority data indicating that at least 12,300 youngsters have died in the enclave in the last four months, compared with 12,193 globally between 2019 and 2022.
To be fair, "they’re in a war zone so their safety cannot be guaranteed" ...
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Old 03-04-2024, 15:34   #1318
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Re: Hamas Israel War

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Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
It's horrific, any numbers of children killed, on both sides.

Quote:
To be fair, "they’re in a war zone so their safety cannot be guaranteed" ...
A very sad fact.

The israeli children were not in a war zone, and their safety couldn't be guaranteed either.
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Old 03-04-2024, 15:54   #1319
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Re: Hamas Israel War

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
The IDF’s rules of engagement are lax - recklessly so. I used to have to sit through and report on inquests, so many that the coroner’s description of an accident has remained with me to this day: ‘the unforeseen consequences of a deliberate act’. At some point, the consequences of the IDF’s lax RoI stop being unforseeable.
I wonder if that's shaped in part by having a large conscription element? Such soldiers may lack the experience and discipline of professional soldiers so the rules of engagement are made laxer to accommodate this.
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Old 03-04-2024, 16:02   #1320
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Re: Hamas Israel War

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
I wonder if that's shaped in part by having a large conscription element? Such soldiers may lack the experience and discipline of professional soldiers so the rules of engagement are made laxer to accommodate this.
No, not in the most moral army in the world
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