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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
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No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
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Old 23-03-2008, 02:09   #1651
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by OF1975 View Post
Ceedee, under RIPA, any interception without consent or warrant already is a criminal offence.
Apologies.
I thought RIPA was concerned with identifiable data rather than anonymised elements of a clickstream.
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Old 23-03-2008, 02:19   #1652
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

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Originally Posted by ceedee View Post
Apologies.
I thought RIPA was concerned with identifiable data rather than anonymised elements of a clickstream.
No apologies needed. Personally Identifiable data is one of the key issue regarding the data protection act. RIPA is to do with interception of communications and is a whole other ball game. As I said though, its yet to be determined in court whether Phorms system would break RIPA but experts such as the Open Rights Group, Foundation for Information Policy Research and a professor from the LSE (I cant remember who right now) all think its likely it will. When it comes to the secret trial BT/Phorm ran last year I think its almost a certainty that it DID break ripa as a key part of RIPA is consent and BT did not gain consent and even went further by denying the trial was going on at the time.

That said, it shall be interesting to see how the police react when a formal complaint is made to them.
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Old 23-03-2008, 02:41   #1653
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark777 View Post

But, this campaign must go mainstream if we are to kill off the issue once and for all.

Now, how do we best do that?
As a follow up, what are the impressions of a company that allows people to work from home? What do they think about home-workers accessing their systems through a 'tapped' connection?

I have FE Colleges amongst my clients. They take data protection very seriously. All would be horrified if they knew data streams would be scanned.

Increasing numbers of Colleges allow staff and students to access College e-mail remotely via web-mail. Staff may also access student records remotely.

Next week I will raise issues with them; should Institutions block access to staff and students who use Phorm enabled ISP's?

Should staff and students be advised to change ISP's or should the institutions scale down efforts to implement things like virtual learning environments, available at home? (Government policy to push these things out asap)

Finally, I will raise these issues on a closed Jiscmail group that is read by most people working in FE data processing in the country. Astonishingly, as far as I know, the issue has never been raised there.

Does anybody here work in schools? Many schools are setting up facilities for parents to view their child's attendance records etc from home. It may be that your child attends such a school. What does the school think?

Personal records of young people are rightfully a concern to everybody and need to become part of the issue.

It may well be that you can also raise concerns where you work, and thus broaden the campaign against this serious danger?

Could this be the biggest step backwards in striving towards the goal of an e-enabled society?
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Old 23-03-2008, 08:20   #1654
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

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Originally Posted by mark777 View Post
I agree with this 100%. Phorm is not really the issue, if they go belly up tomorrow, somebody else will take their place 6 months down the line.

The ISP's have to be stopped from ever getting involved with anything like this, ever again. Although this one may be won over a point of law or something like that, I believe only 2 things can kill the idea off :-

1) Governement intervention (ha ha), but they might if they think there are a lot of votes at stake.

2) Mass public protest.

Both boil down to essentially the same thing, this issue must go mainstream.

8k votes on the Downing Street website is nothing. Compare to how many internet users there are?

A BBC article that is no longer visible?

Clear cut informed opinion against, but not exactly mass market publications (The Register).

Yes, keep on doing what everybody here is doing. Talk the thing down at every opportunity. Explore using the law etc.

But, this campaign must go mainstream if we are to kill off the issue once and for all.

Now, how do we best do that?
You can bet the ISP's and PHORM/121 MEDIA are hoping that by the time this roles for real that the main complaints will have subsided.

There must be constant pressure all the time.
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Old 23-03-2008, 11:22   #1655
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I'd like to know what Phorm are proposing to do for the majority of sites on the web which already have Terms & Conditions that already explicitly deny permission to mine/gather/use their data in any way.

Are they going to blacklist all sites that have T&C denying this type of use? In which case, they won't have many sites that they can use.

Here's a few examples from some popular websites (relevant parts in bold!):

Amazon.co.uk
...This licence does not include any resale or commercial use of this website or its contents; any collection and use of any product listings, descriptions, or prices; any derivative use of this website or its contents; any downloading or copying of account information for the benefit of another merchant; or any use of data mining, robots, or similar data gathering and extraction tools.
This website or any portion of this website may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without our express written consent.

Facebook
...any other use of the Site Content is strictly prohibited. Such license is subject to these Terms of Use and does not include use of any data mining, robots or similar data gathering or extraction methods. Any use of the Site or the Site Content other than as specifically authorized herein, without the prior written permission of Company, is strictly prohibited and will terminate the license granted herein. Such unauthorized use may also violate applicable laws including copyright and trademark laws and applicable communications regulations and statutes.

The BBC
...You may not copy, reproduce, republish, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, download, post, broadcast, transmit, make available to the public, or otherwise use bbc.co.uk content in any way except for your own personal, non-commercial use. You also agree not to adapt, alter or create a derivative work from any bbc.co.uk content except for your own personal, non-commercial use.

Have a quick look at the T&C for just about any popular site and chances are that they'll already have paragraphs similar to the above.

If these sites make their money from running their own advertising scheme, subscription fees etc. do you think they'd be too happy that Phorm are mining the data from every page of theirs that we visit so they can make a profit? I wouldn't be.
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Old 23-03-2008, 11:39   #1656
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Very interesting perspective, mrjolly.
Thanks for your insight!
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Old 23-03-2008, 11:40   #1657
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjolly View Post
I'd like to know what Phorm are proposing to do for the majority of sites on the web which already have Terms & Conditions that already explicitly deny permission to mine/gather/use their data in any way.

Are they going to blacklist all sites that have T&C denying this type of use? In which case, they won't have many sites that they can use.

Here's a few examples from some popular websites (relevant parts in bold!):

Amazon.co.uk
...This licence does not include any resale or commercial use of this website or its contents; any collection and use of any product listings, descriptions, or prices; any derivative use of this website or its contents; any downloading or copying of account information for the benefit of another merchant; or any use of data mining, robots, or similar data gathering and extraction tools.
This website or any portion of this website may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without our express written consent.

Facebook
...any other use of the Site Content is strictly prohibited. Such license is subject to these Terms of Use and does not include use of any data mining, robots or similar data gathering or extraction methods. Any use of the Site or the Site Content other than as specifically authorized herein, without the prior written permission of Company, is strictly prohibited and will terminate the license granted herein. Such unauthorized use may also violate applicable laws including copyright and trademark laws and applicable communications regulations and statutes.

The BBC
...You may not copy, reproduce, republish, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, download, post, broadcast, transmit, make available to the public, or otherwise use bbc.co.uk content in any way except for your own personal, non-commercial use. You also agree not to adapt, alter or create a derivative work from any bbc.co.uk content except for your own personal, non-commercial use.

Have a quick look at the T&C for just about any popular site and chances are that they'll already have paragraphs similar to the above.

If these sites make their money from running their own advertising scheme, subscription fees etc. do you think they'd be too happy that Phorm are mining the data from every page of theirs that we visit so they can make a profit? I wouldn't be.
I wonder how many websites with similar rules had them broken with the illegal trials BT and phorm ran last year?
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Old 23-03-2008, 12:40   #1658
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjolly View Post
I'd like to know what Phorm are proposing to do for the majority of sites on the web which already have Terms & Conditions that already explicitly deny permission to mine/gather/use their data in any way.

Are they going to blacklist all sites that have T&C denying this type of use? In which case, they won't have many sites that they can use.

Here's a few examples from some popular websites (relevant parts in bold!):

Amazon.co.uk
...This licence does not include any resale or commercial use of this website or its contents; any collection and use of any product listings, descriptions, or prices; any derivative use of this website or its contents; any downloading or copying of account information for the benefit of another merchant; or any use of data mining, robots, or similar data gathering and extraction tools.
This website or any portion of this website may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without our express written consent.

Facebook
...any other use of the Site Content is strictly prohibited. Such license is subject to these Terms of Use and does not include use of any data mining, robots or similar data gathering or extraction methods. Any use of the Site or the Site Content other than as specifically authorized herein, without the prior written permission of Company, is strictly prohibited and will terminate the license granted herein. Such unauthorized use may also violate applicable laws including copyright and trademark laws and applicable communications regulations and statutes.

The BBC
...You may not copy, reproduce, republish, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, download, post, broadcast, transmit, make available to the public, or otherwise use bbc.co.uk content in any way except for your own personal, non-commercial use. You also agree not to adapt, alter or create a derivative work from any bbc.co.uk content except for your own personal, non-commercial use.

Have a quick look at the T&C for just about any popular site and chances are that they'll already have paragraphs similar to the above.

If these sites make their money from running their own advertising scheme, subscription fees etc. do you think they'd be too happy that Phorm are mining the data from every page of theirs that we visit so they can make a profit? I wouldn't be.
Very good post thank you. But isn't the danger that such sites would be willing to alter their T&C to get their noses in the potentially lucrative Phorm trough? There's a lot of money to be shared around at our expense. Money talks. BIG MONEY SHOUTS. If Phorm is 'legal' there will be a queue with their hands open
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Old 23-03-2008, 12:44   #1659
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Old 23-03-2008, 12:46   #1660
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjolly View Post
I'd like to know what Phorm are proposing to do for the majority of sites on the web which already have Terms & Conditions that already explicitly deny permission to mine/gather/use their data in any way.

Are they going to blacklist all sites that have T&C denying this type of use? In which case, they won't have many sites that they can use.

Here's a few examples from some popular websites (relevant parts in bold!):

Amazon.co.uk
...This licence does not include any resale or commercial use of this website or its contents; any collection and use of any product listings, descriptions, or prices; any derivative use of this website or its contents; any downloading or copying of account information for the benefit of another merchant; or any use of data mining, robots, or similar data gathering and extraction tools.
This website or any portion of this website may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without our express written consent.

Facebook
...any other use of the Site Content is strictly prohibited. Such license is subject to these Terms of Use and does not include use of any data mining, robots or similar data gathering or extraction methods. Any use of the Site or the Site Content other than as specifically authorized herein, without the prior written permission of Company, is strictly prohibited and will terminate the license granted herein. Such unauthorized use may also violate applicable laws including copyright and trademark laws and applicable communications regulations and statutes.

The BBC
...You may not copy, reproduce, republish, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, download, post, broadcast, transmit, make available to the public, or otherwise use bbc.co.uk content in any way except for your own personal, non-commercial use. You also agree not to adapt, alter or create a derivative work from any bbc.co.uk content except for your own personal, non-commercial use.

Have a quick look at the T&C for just about any popular site and chances are that they'll already have paragraphs similar to the above.

If these sites make their money from running their own advertising scheme, subscription fees etc. do you think they'd be too happy that Phorm are mining the data from every page of theirs that we visit so they can make a profit? I wouldn't be.
Actually, I think then that your post may also raise the question of whether Google's search engine gathering bots are also illegal, nevermind Phorm.
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Old 23-03-2008, 13:01   #1661
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Actually, I think then that your post may also raise the question of whether Google's search engine gathering bots are also illegal, nevermind Phorm.
Okay so once we've beaten off Phorm and got VM to promise that they'll never 'touch' our data again, we'll take on Google...

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Old 23-03-2008, 13:09   #1662
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Actually, I think then that your post may also raise the question of whether Google's search engine gathering bots are also illegal, nevermind Phorm.
Most sites with those T&C have scripts that stop the bots going to pages they don't allow the search on but will allow a few pages of the Site owners choice to keep them in the lists for google searches to promote more traffic to their sites.

I moderate a website with similar T&C and I go into an admin area which shows some details of members which I have agreed a NDC on, phorm would break this rule for me, I cannot trust VM to allow me to surf as I do now with no one looking over my shoulder logging Big BRother style so I quit VM for an ISP that can deliver what I ask. The right to look after my own online protection and privacy.
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Old 23-03-2008, 13:20   #1663
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toto View Post
Actually, I think then that your post may also raise the question of whether Google's search engine gathering bots are also illegal, nevermind Phorm.
In most cases though it's of benefit to have your site indexed by search engines as that's one way to attract more visitors and potentially more sales. If not, the site owner can add a few meta tags or create a robots.txt page to prevent the site being crawled.

In the case of Phorm, it's the opposite. They analyse the contents of the page then display an advert for a competitor a few seconds later. The website has just lost a sale & Phorm has made a profit. There was nothing that site could do to prevent that.

Phorm could argue that they won't analyse any pages if asked by the owners, but the terms & conditions are already in saying you can't do it.

I'm not sure if everyone would want, or be able to sign up with Phorm. according to this page "I see they start their publisher info request form with traffic details - smallest on the list is 500k - 1 million - so it would seem they are targeting higher traffic sites or possibly networks." If they're using their own advertising, are a subscription site, or in the case of the BBC, not allowed to run ads then they might not!
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Old 23-03-2008, 13:40   #1664
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark777 View Post
As a follow up, what are the impressions of a company that allows people to work from home? What do they think about home-workers accessing their systems through a 'tapped' connection?...
If you work from home through VPN (or other form of encryption) then Phorm will not affect you, as stated in a previous post (sorry I can't be more specific!)
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Old 23-03-2008, 14:33   #1665
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceedee View Post
So, aiui, flowrebmit is asking what if the ICO is convinced that the data VM pass to Phorm really *is* sufficiently anonymised? Ie. outside the scope of the DPA? (That's close enough in summary, flowrebmit?)
Erm Sort of, it's whether any elements of our IP data traffic, passing through the Phorm/ISP profiling equipment, is treated as personal data by the DPA?
Many of us will know we have, at times, personal data travelling in an unencrypted IP data stream, but does the Act cover that, or is it only concerned with personal data that we explicitly give to an organisation that they use?
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