Will Scotland Leave the UK?

[Sephiroth]

Tut tut, my friend. Jumping on the Hugh bandwagon, renowned for his "jokes".

OB makes very valid points about Scottish independence provided that you don't get into the game of second guessing his meaning. You may well pray in aid that there's only what he's written to go on, but of course this man from beloved Wokingham does not damn all Scots; just the half-wits who will vote for independence.

Anyway, it's not going to happen for a very long time if it happens at all., The wicked witch is now flying the EU flag on government buildings; the EU must be bemused with its left hand and laughing at the UK with its right hand, so to speak.

[jfman]

I'm not sure the EU flag is flying on Government buildings but it's nice to provoke outrage among the English by implying it.

It may on Europe day, but I think we will still play under that flag in the Ryder Cup in the absence of a flag for Europe the continent and not the EU.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

I'm not sure the EU flag is flying on Government buildings but it's nice to provoke outrage among the English by implying it.

It may on Europe day, but I think we will still play under that flag in the Ryder Cup in the absence of a flag for Europe the continent and not the EU.

NICOLA Sturgeon has ordered the EU flag to be flown every day from Scottish Government buildings in a move dubbed “daft and petulant” by rivals.

The request was included in updated official guidance which also says the Union flag should only be flown once a year on Remembrance Day.

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/new...geon-holyrood/

[jfman]

That's top trolling by the FM.

Originally Posted by jfman

That's top trolling by the FM.

I'm not convinced she's capable of being that arch and knowing. Nationalists are obsessed with flags and other national emblems. It seems much more likely to me that she's tragically sincere.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

I'm not convinced she's capable of being that arch and knowing. Nationalists are obsessed with flags and other national emblems. It seems much more likely to me that she's tragically sincere.

I'm pretty sure this has been properly thought through. Will it win the SNP more votes by reminding voters that Scotland voted to remain in the EU and left due to votes taken outside Scotland? Probably yes but it certainly won't lose any. So decision taken.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I'm pretty sure this has been properly thought through. Will it win the SNP more votes by reminding voters that Scotland voted to remain in the EU and left due to votes taken outside Scotland? Probably yes but it certainly won't lose any. So decision taken.

You have to factor in the nationalist assumption that deep down, all right-thinking people actually agree with them. Scottish ‘independence’ is basically a virtuous position in and of itself, and supporting arguments are secondary. “Independence within Europe” has been SNP policy since the very early 90s (not at all coincidentally, from the same time that a significant chunk of the Tory party became arch Eurosceptic) despite it being intellectually incoherent when viewed alongside the arguments they offer against absolutely anything being decided in Westminster.

Nevertheless, for various complex historical, cultural, and frankly religious reasons Scotland has a sense of itself that is European in a way that England does not. I don’t think that sense mandates the strong attachment the SNP has to the EU, which is entirely political and unquestionable because to do so automatically aligns one with Tories. But there is a convenient, if intellectually lazy, link between Scotland’s historic sense of European-ness and its present political attachment to the EU.

All of which is to say that no, I don’t think any strategising has been done around the flag-flying. The SNP is all about identity politics and flag-waving gestures like this fit the bill admirably. It will have been very easy for Sturgeon to convince herself, without any real effort, that flying the EU flag would be a popular thing to do.

[jfman]

The SNP have done a really good job increasing their vote share for an organisation seemingly incapable of strategic thought.

Would have thought the titans of the Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative parties would do a better job against such a hapless bunch.

I'm pretty sure that nothing I've written above says the SNP is incapable of strategic thought.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Fundamentally, I take Old Boy's input as completely insincere.

One only has to look at every single post where he's set up his signature to inform us using the user title



and until recently the post signature to tell us that on demand will replace linear television. A subject close to his heart until you ask him to define 'linear'.

Almost nobody believes he is sincerely engaging in either debate so when brings his British nationalism for a brief sojourn into the Scotland thread to tell us what's good for us forgive me if I'm sceptical he has Scotland's best interests at heart.

Deliberately or not, you seem to be completely misinterpreting pretty well every single post of mine that you comment on.

As for ‘linear TV’, give us a break. That is nothing whatsoever to do with this thread, and your ‘point’ has been answered on countless occasions. Time to grow up, you are not in primary school any more.

As for Scotland, I don’t really care overmuch myself if they vote for separation. The advantages will be for the rest of us. But I do genuinely feel sorry for those Scottish people who are taken in by the rhetoric of the SNP. In my view, the opposition parties need to highlight the economic madness of separation. If they still vote in line with the SNP having been warned, they will be beyond help.

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:14 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

The SNP have done a really good job increasing their vote share for an organisation seemingly incapable of strategic thought.

Would have thought the titans of the Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative parties would do a better job against such a hapless bunch.

On that, we agree.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

In my view, the opposition parties need to highlight the economic madness of separation. If they still vote in line with the SNP having been warned, they will be beyond help.

On that, we agree.

Economics doesn't always work at the ballot box. The heart often conquers the head. Besides, the Republic of Ireland has shown a small country can end up thriving outside the UK and I don't see it clamouring to re-join.

Boris's solution is a bit of an unknown. Is it to play up the UK roll-out of vaccinations? Is it to build a tunnel to Northern Ireland? Is Labour's more devolution? Perhaps to give Scotland many of the benefits of independence but still nominally within the UK?

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Economics doesn't always work at the ballot box. The heart often conquers the head. Besides, the Republic of Ireland has shown a small country can end up thriving outside the UK and I don't see it clamouring to re-join.

Boris's solution is a bit of an unknown. Is it to play up the UK roll-out of vaccinations? Is it to build a tunnel to Northern Ireland? Is Labour's more devolution? Perhaps to give Scotland many of the benefits of independence but still nominally within the UK?

Ireland is a good case in point. It suffered a generation of grinding poverty post separation and only an eye-watering sum of ECUs has brought it up to where it is now. But Ireland benefited from EU largesse at a time when there were only around a dozen members. All that yummy free money is being hoovered up by ex-communist Eastern European states now. If the SNP thinks it can swap subsidies mostly generated in London and the southeast of England for those purloined and redistributed by Brussels, they’re sorely mistaken.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Deliberately or not, you seem to be completely misinterpreting pretty well every single post of mine that you comment on.

As for ‘linear TV’, give us a break. That is nothing whatsoever to do with this thread, and your ‘point’ has been answered on countless occasions. Time to grow up, you are not in primary school any more.

Yet nobody else seems to think you've answered the point - however I agree there's many threads you've started on the same subject then you flip between when on the back foot so no need to have one here.

As for Scotland, I don’t really care overmuch myself if they vote for separation. The advantages will be for the rest of us.

You don't seem very convinced, OB.

But I do genuinely feel sorry for those Scottish people who are taken in by the rhetoric of the SNP. In my view, the opposition parties need to highlight the economic madness of separation. If they still vote in line with the SNP having been warned, they will be beyond help.

Maybe they struggle to highlight the economic madness because it simply isn't economic madness and much of the oft-trotted out lines are easily discredited based on Scotland doing nothing.

You didn't find the economic argument compelling when it came to Brexit, so I'm unsure why you are pegging your hopes on an argument you readily discounted for a subject you don't care about.

[Sephiroth]

I think that OB deals adequately with most points raised.

You didn't find the economic argument compelling when it came to Brexit, so I'm unsure why you are pegging your hopes on an argument you readily discounted for a subject you don't care about.

As to jfman's point above, there is a huge difference between the Scottish micro-economy and the UK's macro-economy in terms of arguing for independence. In the UK's case, the ability to survive post0Brexit is not in doubt. That cannot be said of Scotland. jfman should construct better arguments.

Originally Posted by jfman

Maybe they struggle to highlight the economic madness because it simply isn't economic madness and much of the oft-trotted out lines are easily discredited based on Scotland doing nothing.

You didn't find the economic argument compelling when it came to Brexit, so I'm unsure why you are pegging your hopes on an argument you readily discounted for a subject you don't care about.

Many of the remainer arguments levelled against Brexit must also be levelled against Scexit. Those arguments may have different answers, but those answers must be given. And the different scale and balance of the Scottish economy compared to the UK as a whole is highly relevant.

To take but one recent example: there have been many complaints about 73 page documents exporters have to present at Dover before they can put their lorry on the ferry to France. Has anyone seriously considered how the Scottish economy will fare if every lorry trying to go any further than Gretna or Berwick has to do the same thing? Scottish business is proportionately much more exposed to this sort of thing than the UK as a whole.

Has anyone put any thought into how Scottish business would access the EU market, even if Scotland were to join the EU independently, given that it is almost totally dependent on road transport through England in order to get there?

Scotland could “make different choices” about its economy is wholly inadequate as an answer to these pressing practical questions for which there are now real-world examples.