Planes and terrorist threats

[Halcyon]

I seem to think about many things in life and after watching a documentary on September 11th the other day it got me thinking about ways the plane hijack could have been alot different.

My conclusion was:....why are planes not fitted with security cameras.
Just small ones on either sides of the passenger cabins that look out over the whole of the plane interior.

The cameras would be hidden and integrated into the planes design so 1) they would be hard to spot, and 2) tamper proof.

The video would be fed to the cockpit.
The crew would have then seen what was going on in the back and could have taken action more quickly.


Does this exist on some planes ? If it does thats great, but I think it would definately be a good idea.
What do you think ?

[Tricky]

AFAIK many planes now have this outside the cockpit door (due to them being locked during flight) I think it's probably something that should be introduced on all newly constructed planes I.e. the new Airbus but as many airlines run planes for 30+ years it would take some time for this to become the norm.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by Tricky

AFAIK many planes now have this outside the cockpit door (due to them being locked during flight) I think it's probably something that should be introduced on all newly constructed planes I.e. the new Airbus but as many airlines run planes for 30+ years it would take some time for this to become the norm.

Haven't all cockpit doors been reinforced as a result of 9/11?

[Paul K]

Originally Posted by danielf

Haven't all cockpit doors been reinforced as a result of 9/11?

AFAIK yes, a lot of changes were rushed in by airlines following 911 to try and combat possible future events. Trouble is it doesn't take much to bring a plane down if it's travelling at high altitude
__________________

http://www.terrorismcentral.com/Libr...gSecChall.html

Some appropriate flight deck barrier device must be approved and installed in the entire U.S. fleet and future design of flight deck doors must meet newly determined requirements.

Procedural changes must be made at all airlines regarding identification and access of all personnel to the flight deck.

Airline industry, unions, and FAA should redesign security training with possible implementation of defensive capabilities to address newly-identified threats, incorporate changes into the annual curriculum, and provide security training to all crewmembers.

Each airline, in cooperation with the FAA or other government entities must develop a delivery system to provide government security advisories to crewmembers in a timely manner.

A task force should determine the necessary modifications to assure continuous transmission of a transponder signal.

All airlines, pilots and the FAA should jointly identify procedures in pilot training that could be adapted in an attempted hijacking.

[Halcyon]

Yeah I've heard that re-infoced lockable doors have now been implemented on most large aircraft.

Setting up small cameras however would not be a big job Im sure and could really let the pilots make crucial decisions before anything else happens on the aircraft.

I guess this does not solve the problem of people boarding with explosives and setting it off mid flight.....however that is less likely to happen with security checks spotting these things.

Thanks paul for that link. It mentions cameras in there:

There is consensus that cameras to monitor and view the area outside the flight deck door may add value. There should be continuous lighting outside the flight deck door for visibility, as well as to provide lighting for cameras. However, placement of a monitor in the limited space on the flight deck is a challenge. While there may be value in video or audio systems which provide information about activities throughout the cabin, we have no consensus on whether or how to proceed with this technology.

Recommendation 9:
We recommend that industry evaluate the use of cameras and lighting outside the flight deck door within 6 months.

[punky]

Cameras are a brilliant idea. You wonder why noone else thought of it

Originally Posted by punky

Cameras are a brilliant idea. You wonder why noone else thought of it

I thought they had as well. If the idea is that they are hidden and people are not to known they are there. Maybe it just hasnt been broadcast to us. But they are still there

[punky]

Originally Posted by Damien

I thought they had as well. If the idea is that they are hidden and people are not to known they are there. Maybe it just hasnt been broadcast to us. But they are still there

There might be a human rigths/privacy issue with it. If it is hidden, people won't know what pictures of them are being taken.

[cookie_365]

Originally Posted by punky

Cameras are a brilliant idea. You wonder why noone else thought of it

Because they cost money to test (to ensure they don't interfere with critical electronics & electricals), install, maintain, monitor etc.

Who's going to pay?

How many deaths will cameras on every plane prevent?

[punky]

Great points.

[Halcyon]

As for it being a privacy / human rights issue, I would think that preventing a situation as big as this would be more important than wether they are being filmed in a particular way. Its not like it will be shown on prime time TV, but I guess in the event it was to be miss-used, then there would be a problem.

[cookie_365]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

As for it being a privacy / human rights issue, I would think that preventing a situation as big as this would be more important than wether they are being filmed in a particular way. Its not like it will be shown on prime time TV, but I guess in the event it was to be miss-used, then there would be a problem.

Privacy law isn't really my thang, but CCTV is already routine in shops, offices, etc, so apart from the issue of the possibility of filming someone sleeping/preparing to sleep I don't think those issues are unsurmountable.

But it'll cost a packet (I was about to say 'cost a bomb' ) and it's not clear what benefit it'll actually be in practice.

[Xaccers]

Flight to and from egypt (old plane flown by exel) had a camera looking outside the cockpit.
I also think they should have external rear facing cameras covering the wings, engine, tail and undercarriage so the pilots who basically can only see straight ahead can have a better idea of what's gone wrong should they start getting errors such as engine loss.
One of the many crashes involving a DC-10 was where an engine pilon had become damaged by cutting corners when removing the engine for service, on take off the engine broke free, but instead of dropping off and leaving the pilon, it rolled back over the wing, ripping the pilon off with it and severing the hydrolics.
Because the pilots didn't know the extent of the damage, when they dropped to V2 speed that wing stalled and the plane fell out of the sky.

[BBKing]

After that Chicago crash they put other DC-10 pilots in a simulator and set up the same set of events - I think about 2% got out of it *even knowing what happened to the real crew*. The length of time you had to make the right decision before the situation became irretrievable was so short that TV wouldn't have made any difference.

Outside TV might help in the odd case where an engine fails and the crew misdiagnose it - the BOAC 707 back in the 60s that took off from Heathrow, lost an engine, didn't complete the fire drill and ended up landing back at Heathrow 270 seconds later with the wing on fire - 5 died but 122 others were very lucky. Again the timescale was short but a video screen showing the fire might have jogged someone's memory.

There's a certain amount of evidence that the crew weren't fully aware of how bad the fire was (they stopped the aircraft with the wind coming from the side with the fire and used reverse thrust which fanned the fire forwards and towards the fuselage). Much the same happened at Manchester in 1985 where the pilot wanted to clear the runway and ended up putting the fire upwind of the plane.

[zoombini]

A small screen can be put near the door, there is often room at the back rather than at the front consol.

It would allow them to see who is there before opening the door.