Brexit (Old)

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

Toto, I don’t think we’re in Kansas any more.

The referendum was conducted according to the usual high standards of British elections and delivered a fair result. Furthermore the turnout was relatively high compared to recent General Elections and, due to the simple, binary question, it resulted in the highest number of British voters supporting any proposition in electoral history.

It was fair, it was reasonable, it was historic.

You know I think I preferred it when your delusion of choice was that there might be a re-run, because where we’re taking the discussion right now is just nuts.

So I guess you are the Wizard then? Reach behind the curtain and discover it is all a sham, the Great and Powerful Oz .. all smoke and mirrors.

Nope ... but I do have a very fetching pair of ruby slippers.

[denphone]

A sham is when the incumbent government don't carry out the wishes of the electorate which in some countries is exactly what happens but we are a civilised democracy unlike a dictatorship which will ignore the wishes of its populace..

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

There’s nothing convenient about it.

To go back to your original post you described the EU as follows ”morphing towards federalism; the Euro might collapse; Turkey might join the EU.” You continued to say we have “No chance of preserving Status Quo, which I concede never did us too much harm”.

You then concontradict yourself and say it doesn’t matter if any of the above is actually true in a referendum about EU membership, neither does it matter the extent we can exempt ourselves or hold veto over any of it.

????

[Hom3r]

Originally Posted by denphone

A sham is when the incumbent government don't carry out the wishes of the electorate which in some countries is exactly what happens but we are a civilised democracy unlike a dictatorship which will ignore the wishes of its populace..

Agreed, most people I know will never vote again if Brexit is over turned, and some of these voted to remain.

[Dave42]

Originally Posted by Hom3r

Agreed, most people I know will never vote again if Brexit is over turned, and some of these voted to remain.

the people voted for a vast majority remain parliament after the referendum though

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Dave42

the people voted for a vast majority remain parliament after the referendum though

They didn't know that would be the case. The party manifestos committed to Leave.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

They didn't know that would be the case. The party manifestos committed to Leave.

And you can vote them out if you change your mind/they don’t live up to expectations.

I love the fact we continually have general elections than get stuck with a mistake based on one vote on one specific day.

Originally Posted by Dave42

the people voted for a vast majority remain parliament after the referendum though

I don't think the last election tells us anything to do with Brexit. Voters had moved on from the issue and most of the campaign was about domestic politics.

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

And you can vote them out if you change your mind/they don’t live up to expectations.

I love the fact we continually have general elections than get stuck with a mistake based on one vote on one specific day.

The problem with this is referendums are designed to settle longer-term issues that require fundamental changes. It's not so easy to keep flipping back and forth on if we're in the EU or if Scotland is independent.

I think there needs to be a real change in circumstances and real public support to hold another referendum. I don't really support one on the EU.

That said I think Brexit shows why the last one was a problem. The country is split, 52-48, on a huge change which ideally would require a lot of public support and tenacity to push though. The Government is struggling in part because of that spilt but also IMO because they know they'll be held responsible for any problems after the vote. The public is rarely willing to accept their responsibility problems that happen.

[jfman]

It really isn’t a subject designed to be decided by a wafer thin public vote.

It was foolish of Cameron to allow it on the basis he thought remain would win anyway. Certain issues should only be put to the public when there’s a clear and consistent public opinion than stands the test of time to some degree. The public opinion should be reflected in the Governments they elect on a number of occasions. Then having a referendum is seem as rubber stamping the general consensus. Obviously that’s an ideal world.

[RichardCoulter]

Cameron did it simply to obtain extra votes and never thought that leave would win. When they did, he ran away and left someone else to sort it all out.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by jfman

It really isn’t a subject designed to be decided by a wafer thin public vote.

oh really? well obviously those in power at the time thought differently.

It was foolish of Cameron to allow it on the basis he thought remain would win anyway.

I don't think it was only him that had that thought, which shows how out of touch . . etc etc


Certain issues should only be put to the public when there’s a clear and consistent public opinion than stands the test of time to some degree. The public opinion should be reflected in the Governments they elect on a number of occasions. Then having a referendum is seem as rubber stamping the general consensus. Obviously that’s an ideal world.

swathe of random words with no coherent meaning . .

[jfman]

People on power can think what they like. As you say, it shows he was out of touch.

Once again the inability of certain other members to understand my posts does not invalidate my points. At the end of the day we are in this mess because of no coherent plan throughout, and it’s even debatable if the public would vote the same way given the choice.

I take it that this sudden, rather desperate attempt to call the legitimacy of the 2016 referendum into question is the first sign that some people are moving closer to accepting that Brexit is actually happening and nothing that occurs between now and next March will stop it.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

I take it that this sudden, rather desperate attempt to call the legitimacy of the 2016 referendum into question is the first sign that some people are moving closer to accepting that Brexit is actually happening and nothing that occurs between now and next March will stop it.

Sudden? It’s legitimacy has been getting questioned by some since June 24, 2016.