Brexit discussion

Originally Posted by denphone

We certainly live in no dictatorship that is for sure Mick but plenty of corruption is hidden with bribes and backhanders and plenty more pretty endemic once one scratches below the surface.

Which surfaces to what entities ?

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mick

Which surfaces to what entities ?

Institutions like the financial sector , politics , big businesses and plenty more besides..

Originally Posted by denphone

Institutions like the financial sector , politics , big businesses and plenty more besides..

Proof ?

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mick

Proof ?

There is plenty here.

https://www.ft.com/content/addd777e-...4-0a1e63a52f9c

https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/new...politan-police

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...tion-fn8zszrhn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._Kingdom#2010s

https://www.globalwitness.org/en-gb/...ption-scandal/

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...ial-corruption

https://www.plutobooks.com/978074533...pt-is-britain/

Thats not proof, that’s stories in the media. Most of those links link to same “Allegations of scandals or corruption.”. One of them you linked to is behind pay wall.

In future please explain what you are linking to and why, I shouldn’t have to second guess or clicking blindly.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Mick

You're another one who manipulates the facts as well, you knew very well I was talking about the £ vs the $.



Yes, absolutely, remove the rose tinted EU glasses you are wearing, lots of it has been around for decades, I have no inclination of listing 40 years worth of it.

---------- Post added at 16:13 ---------- Previous post was at 16:08 ----------



No there is not plenty in our country at all. I am not saying it does not exist, but you make it sound we live in a dictatorship that bends all the rules and international laws and treaties, we do no such thing.

Fair enough, the GBP:USD rate is creeping close to pre referendum levels - http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?fr...o=USD&view=10Y Still below where we were even though USD is falling globally. I fail to see how I was manipulating facts however, just posting them.

I am always inclined to post facts. The best thing about this whole Brexit thing for me is how much I have learned about economics, trade and the EU. It’s amazing how much information we have in our hands today. Learning something new every day is great. That’s why I was asking for evidence of corruption in the EU as opposed to EU countries as I have struggled to find anything apart from people saying the institution is corrupt without anything solid to back it up.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

And rightly so. Because it’s not evidence. For it to be evidence, an event has to have occurred. Brexit has not happened yet, so there can be no evidence of any kind.

I know in your selfish reasons you want Brexit to fail Dave, but we managed before 1975, and we will again, without a corrupt and dirty expanding entity, deciding things for the country.

That weaker £ has now recovered by a lot. But nice try, trying to manipulate the facts, as always.

There's only two people I know who think the UK was doing well in the 1970s and want us to return to those dark days. It's good to see you and Jeremy Corbyn finally agreeing on something!
The thing is, we can survive as an independent question but that's not been in any doubt. The debate is whether we will be a stronger and more prosperous nation as part of the EU or as not part of the EU.

Sorry Mick but we do have corruption in this country and we have had it for a longtime, my half brother has as one of his business interests a property development company and he has routinely said over the years how a brown envelope with cash can progress a project more then the needs of an area. He's also long given up reporting it as despite numerous times where he provided evidence nobody bothered to take action so as he puts it he just plays the game now even allowing a percentage of project costs for backhanders and he isn't the only one I've heard the same thing from.

Corruption exists everywhere the scale of it is the difference not the existence of it and while the UK is certainly nowhere close to topping corruption tables it is a problem here.

I have never said there is absolutely no corruption in the UK. But we are certainly a more free and democratic society than say, Russia.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by denphone

We certainly live in no dictatorship that is for sure Mick but plenty of corruption is hidden with bribes and backhanders and plenty more pretty endemic once one scratches below the surface.

It's all relative, Den. Compare our country with the rest of the world and we have little to apologise for.

BREAKING: EU have agreed a draft treaty, an ‘Orderly Withdrawal’ from European Union transition period of 21 months which ends on New Year’s Day 2020.

Key points agreed:

1. Transition period will end on New Year's Day 2020
2. UK can sign but not implement third-country trade deals until then
3. Northern Ireland to have 'full regulatory alignment' as 'backstop'
4. EU citizens who arrive before 2021 get same rights as those after Brexit
5. Britain only able to 'consult' on fishing rule changes
6. Joint committee to be set up to arbitrate on transition disputes

[1andrew1]

Looks like the 21-month transition period has been agreed. We have conceded on the Irish border and on accepting new EU legislation but not shaping it; Rees-Mogg's vassal state.
On the other hand, we can negotiate deals with third parties during this time. But most countries will only do so when they know what future relationship we will have with the EU.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Mick

BREAKING: EU have agreed a draft treaty, an ‘Orderly Withdrawal’ from European Union transition period of 21 months which ends on New Year’s Day 2020.

Key points agreed:

1. Transition period will end on New Year's Day 2020
2. UK can sign but not implement third-country trade deals until then
3. Northern Ireland to have 'full regulatory alignment' as 'backstop'
4. EU citizens who arrive before 2021 get same rights as those after Brexit
5. Britain only able to 'consult' on fishing rule changes
6. Joint committee to be set up to arbitrate on transition disputes

Thank God we have more information on this now to stop all the wingeing from remainers that this is all going to lead to a disaster, with no agreement with the EU. This is better than I had hoped for from the EU at this stage.

However, we need some hard negotiations on points 3 (NI alignment) 5 (fisheries). However, at last, the end of the tunnel is in sight.

---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Looks like the 21-month transition period has been agreed. We have conceded on the Irish border and on accepting new EU legislation but not shaping it; Rees-Mogg's vassal state.
On the other hand, we can negotiate deals with third parties during this time. But most countries will only do so when they know what future relationship we will have with the EU.

I don't think we have conceded on the Irish border, Andrew, not at all. The 'regulatory alignment' is only a backstop if nothing else can be agreed, but as you know, the UK Government has alternative solutions which will be better than this. They have cited the Norway/Sweden border as an example of a frictionless border and they believe new technology can make it even better.

I am absolutely confident that we will not get ourselves in a position whereby we will become a 'vassal state'! Theresa May has ruled that out completely.

The compromise over the right to sign trade agreements seems eminently sensible to me. The hard liners are probably going to have to swallow that one whole.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Thank God we have more information on this now to stop all the wingeing from remainers that this is all going to lead to a disaster, with no agreement with the EU. This is better than I had hoped for from the EU at this stage.[

However, we need some hard negotiations on points 3 (NI alignment) 5 (fisheries). However, at last, the end of the tunnel is in sight.

David Davis's approach of "Yes EU, how high do you want us to jump?" has paid off and we thankfully won't have a train wreck of no deal that Brextremists have been clamouring for. I suspect they will be the most unhappy about today's announcement; most people will be happy that disaster has been averted.

Britain's fishermen catches are primarily sold to the EU so nothing will change on that front if they want to continue doing so.

Trade access is vital to Britain because it exports the bulk of the seafood it catches while importing the majority of what it consumes, mostly cod, salmon, tuna, haddock and prawns.
Europe imports about 75 per cent of the British catch, a cornucopia of 40 species that is too exotic for most domestic consumers, such as the cuttlefish and megrim sole sold every morning at Newlyn’s market in Cornwall.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a7954641.html

Ireland remains a problem as what the UK Government has agreed to as a backstop is unacceptable to the DUP so the hard negotiations are with the DUP and not the EU. In effect, the can has been kicked 21 months down the road on this issue. The salvation for Theresa May is that Northern Ireland DUP supporters are now better understanding the benefiits of the single market and customs union so the DUP may change its position over the next 21 months.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I don't think we have conceded on the Irish border, Andrew, not at all. The 'regulatory alignment' is only a backstop if nothing else can be agreed, but as you know, the UK Government has alternative solutions which will be better than this. They have cited the Norway/Sweden border as an example of a frictionless border and they believe new technology can make it even better.

We have. If you read previous news items, you will see that this was a key issue with Ireland telling the UK that the UK had to acknowledge the back stop solution but the UK held out against this.
Norway and Sweden are both in the single market so this solution is a strange comparison. The only solution is the UK-DUP or Ireland backing down. No magical solutions exist or we would be hearing about them now.
https://flipchartfairytales.wordpres...der-disappear/

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I am absolutely confident that we will not get ourselves in a position whereby we will become a 'vassal state'! Theresa May has ruled that out completely.

It's time to face the facts Old Boy. According to Rees-Mogg that's exactly where we will be during the transition period. "Under the time limited period, the UK will have to abide by all existing EU rules but will lose its say in the decision-making process."https://www.ft.com/content/493af6d6-2b53-11e8-9b4b-bc4b9f08f381

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

David Davis's approach of "Yes EU, how high do you want us to jump?" has paid off and we thankfully won't have a train wreck of no deal that Brextremists have been clamouring for. I suspect they will be the most unhappy about today's announcement; most people will be happy that disaster has been averted.

Britain's fishermen catches are primarily sold to the EU so nothing will change on that front if they want to continue doing so.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a7954641.html

Ireland remains a problem as what the UK Government has agreed to as a backstop is unacceptable to the DUP so the hard negotiations are with the DUP and not the EU. In effect, the can has been kicked 21 months down the road on this issue. The salvation for Theresa May is that Northern Ireland DUP supporters are now better understanding the benefiits of the single market and customs union so the DUP may change its position over the next 21 months.


We have. If you read previous news items, you will see that this was a key issue with Ireland telling the UK that the UK had to acknowledge the back stop solution but the UK held out against this.
Norway and Sweden are both in the single market so this solution is a strange comparison. The only solution is the UK-DUP or Ireland backing down. No magical solutions exist or we would be hearing about them now.
https://flipchartfairytales.wordpres...der-disappear/


It's time to face the facts Old Boy. According to Rees-Mogg that's exactly where we will be during the transition period. "Under the time limited period, the UK will have to abide by all existing EU rules but will lose its say in the decision-making process."https://www.ft.com/content/493af6d6-2b53-11e8-9b4b-bc4b9f08f381

In actual fact, the Brexiteers have welcomed this achievement, Andrew, and it is a demonstration of how careful you should be in interpreting what people say. I have said on a number of occasions that this is a negotiation, and in a negotiation you start with the extremes of what you want to achieve and work back from them. That way, both sides get the maximum they can in the eventual agreement.

On fisheries, it is not the exports that are the problem, it's the fishing quotas. By the end of the transition period, I want the UK to get back control of fisheries policy, taking account of the traditional fishing rights we had before we joined the Common Market.

As I said in my last post, the NI issue we've agreed on is purely a backstop and we will work back from that. You are right to say that neither TM nor the DUP will wear that, so that is clear. The backstop was agreed to give the UK space to develop a solution that the EU will accept and keep Ireland quiet in the meantime. However, a better solution will be found, or there will be no agreement. On the possible solution, Norway is in the EEA and it has access to the single market, but it's not part of the single market. We don't wish to be part of the EEA, of course, but the example was to show how this cross border arrangement could work. However, the answer we come up with will be unique to the UK.

I am certainly facing the reality of this situation, Andrew, but you seem to prefer problems to solutions. We are getting to where we want to be, and sooner or later, you will come to see that.