Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[Bonglet]

Sorry didnt mean to sound hostile but could you answer these 2 questions i put before you deflected them and others about B-M not phorm?

1. do you catergorically deny that you have such a strategic plan or partnership with Burson Marsteller related to phorm atm and have never been in touch with them or the pr people working for phorm?.

2. What exactly is the bonus in having a strategic partnership with this company apart from having the odd coffee morning a user already posted this as part of B-M known tactics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian Smart
One of the most effective PR tools is the “third party” technique, where a firm will hire an “expert” to speak on behalf of a company. People don’t generally trust corporate executives who say a product is harmless (say cigarettes, Teflon cookware or household insecticides), but are more likely to believe the same words from a scientist. And sometimes even more effective than hiring experts is getting average citizens to do the same. PR firms have time and again managed to create the illusion of public support for corporate causes through front groups, such as the CCRES."

Sound familiar?

dont get me wrong but how does it look when you and your strategic partners *cough* are both working for the same company at the same time for the same issue coincidence?

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

There are critically important issues of the gravest magnitude out there, some - in many countries - involving life and death situations because of intrusion into personal information by authorities.

It is of a critical importance to many people in this country for the simple reason you wouldnt mind if it was the government or police to keep the people and the national security safe (Even if they lose your details ;S)
But for an intrusion into personal information by a COMPANY especailly a dubious ex-spyware company who will sell details to the highest bidder we have every right to be gravely concerned hence some peoples responses as you see here.

[Ravenheart]

Originally Posted by Bonglet

It is of a critical importance to many people in this country for the simple reason you wouldnt mind if it was the government or police to keep the people and the national security safe (Even if they lose your details ;S)
But for an intrusion into personal information by a COMPANY especailly a dubious ex-spyware company who will sell details to the highest bidder we have every right to be gravely concerned hence some peoples responses as you see here.

Well said!

[dav]

Personally, I view both Simon and CF posters as riders on the same tandem bicycle. Hopefully, we'll all be pedalling in the same direction by Tuesday and not be facing different directions

[Florence]

I have been reading this and I was pleased to see Simon had joined in the discussion. As many of you know I was Cable customer until the phorm hit the fan and I decided to move back to BT line and smaller ISP that wouldn't entertain Phorm.
I look forward to the results to sit and read but would I ever allow phorm to monitor my click the answer is no.
We are entitled to our own opinions which I feel is under attack from phorm who wish to try and confuse or blind public with the fantastic offer of protection over the internet. Phishing isn’t as big a rip off if you use common sense on the internet but the risk of your personal details being phormed then sold out to the highest bidder is higher.
Do I trust the Phorm management no I had to remove his rootkit from a PC never again..
You will find that a large amount of people on the internet block adverts so why do they need one phormed around their clicks..
It has been proven that many get addicted to things some gambling others can become excessive shoppers. This type of bombardment could cause some families financial problems if a person becomes addicted to buying from the bombardment of adverts.
The carrot is supposed security that doesn’t exist since the background of the company is dubious; this security is already available around the internet without having your clicks sold to the highest bidder.
Again Simon nothing against you or 80/20 as I have noticed you do some really good work but what you needed to look at ways that phishing is covered by other resources online already. If the answer is yes why do they need to be tricked into deep packet inspection of every page they visit which is against human rights and privacy..

I cannot attend on Tuesday and pray that sense is restored and this phorm is sent packing for those unlike me unable to escape to another ISP provider.

[amateria]

I don't understand when you are speaking as PI, when you are speaking as 80/20 and when you are speaking as you. If I criticise the conduct of 80/20, will you take that as a personal attack on Simon? Will you try to guilt-trip me about how needy PI is of financial and moral support? If you do those things, how can I ever criticise the performance of 80/20?

The incompetent PRs that Phorm hired have now almost disappeared from the forums and now you - 80/20? - post about Phorm's unstinting devotion to truth and fairness, whatever the cost to Phorm.

If we all promised to make generous donations to PI, would 80/20 stop acting for Phorm?

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

Of course I don't mean to imply you or anyone else is narrow minded. That wasn't my intent, and it would be plain wrong and rude to say so. I'm merely trying to point out that on a day to day basis I have to balance a very unpleasant spectrum of privacy issues, so I hope you can understand where I'm coming from. In some respects I'm angry at myself for spending so much precious time dealing with people's perceptions rather than the hard reality of my tasks as an activist. Many of you are deeply disappointed and angry with me, but I am getting old and I don't know how much time I have left to stand Canute-like before this awful tide. I am alleged to be the most ferocious privacy activist around, and yet I have singularly failed to stop the encroachment of the surveillance society, even with so much help from people like yourselves.

That doesn't mean I treat the Phorm issue any less seriously than you would wish. However I am also aware of the tectonic shifts that are happening in the online world and I'm doing my best to position myself, and others, so we can best understand and engage.

I have been reluctant to say this, because it's really nobody's business but my own, but I have not personally received a penny from Phorm. 80/20 has, but I am not drawing any salary or retainer from 80/20. The money goes to the development of the organisation and to the causes that we seek to help. In the future, I may draw a salary, but not now or in the forseeable future.

Simon

Simon, as I have said before and will continue to say in the future, I have the greatest respect and admiration for the work you have done with PI over the years and I am proud to say that such work has inspired me to change my career. Let me promise you that my opinion on this will never change, it is seen by myself and many others as utterly selfless and incredibly important.

I also respect your right to earn a living and have no concerns over 80/20 Thinking's business plan and can even see why you started the company in the first place. I agree, it is easier to fight from the inside out, which is what 80/20 Thinking in spirit, is all about.

But you also need to respect that it is very difficult for people who have been following this issue, not to perceive you (and 80/20 Thinking) as PR paid for by Phorm. I accept that it is not entirely your fault that this perception has arisen as well, the first storm was caused by Phorm stating they had the approval of PI.

But sadly, as I am sure you know yourself, first impressions stick and unfortunately that is the impression people have of 80/20s role in this issue.

I was admittedly a little harsh in my earlier post where I referred to you as the enemy and a defector, for that I apologise, but in my defence I have worked very hard and put a great deal of time into this issue and as such it is very difficult to not have the occasional emotional outburst (which even you have been guilty of on more than one occasion since this issue arose).

I just don't see how anything is going to change public opinion (or the legal issues) with regards to Phorm and their plans, not in the current social and political climate.

I would also like to thank you for taking the time on a Sunday to answer our questions on this forum.

I would beg you not to take offence at people's reactions even if they do sometimes go a bit over the top. We are all human beings and when things upset us, we lash out, that's human nature and we simply have to wear a thicker skin to deal with that.

Alexander Hanff

[amateria]

Alexander's email is very measured and gracious. I have failed to live up to that standard of courtesy and I resolve to try to be as measured and gracious from now on. However ungracious Simon has found us, it would be great if he could overcome his feelings, however understandable, and answer some of the outstanding questions, many of which are not at all critical of Simon.

[80/20Thinking]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

Simon, as I have said before and will continue to say in the future, I have the greatest respect and admiration for the work you have done with PI over the years and I am proud to say that such work has inspired me to change my career. Let me promise you that my opinion on this will never change, it is seen by myself and many others as utterly selfless and incredibly important.

Alexander, I likewise have enormous respect for you. To leave a lucrative career and venture into something as arcane and (often) thankless as privacy is a decision that needs to be recognized and applauded. It is not an easy path.

You are right. There are many issues that have arisen from all this, lessons learned and will's strengthened. I've learned a great deal. Whatever happens, please rest assured that the ruthless activist is still burned into my soul and will not depart, no matter what the situation.

[amateria]

to change the subject, I posted this on BadPhorm in the Server Operators also need to act! thread:

"I suggest sending a registered letter to the registered office of the ISPs, giving notice that:

In accordance with sections 1 and 2 of RIPA

- you do not consent, either as sender or recipient, to any interception of any of your website traffic for any purpose whatsoever
- the fact that your website has been made available for download subject to its terms and conditions of use may not be construed as consent to any interception
- in particular, you do not consent to any interception, either as sender or receiver, of your website traffic, even if the interception were for the purposes of ascertaining whether or not you consented to such interception

Then there would be no argument (along the lines suggested by the Home Office) that by making your website available to internet users, you are impliedly consenting to interception by ISPs. Equally importantly, it would deprive the ISP of the defence (proposed by the Home Office) that the ISP "reasonably believed" consent had been given by virtue of the fact that the website was available for download by its users.

While you're at it, why not copy the letter to the Home Office, the ICO and the DPP.

I think from a legal perspective this would be pretty watertight. Notices on the website, which by definition may not be read by the ISP until after it has committed the interception, are necessary, but they may be much less effective than a written notice which has been signed for by the ISP's registered office. It would be very hard to evade criminal liability in the face of the admitted receipt of this type of notice."

---------- Post added at 22:44 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------

Alexander, if it seems to fit, please feel free to use this wording in your paper.

[80/20Thinking]

Folks, can you release me for a while? I know there are many questions I haven't yet answered, but pressing work awaits me and I must get it finished before the new week begins. I'll do my best to come back tomorrow and give you more answers.

Simon

[n0c0ntr0l]

That is it. I AM LEAVING VIRGIN. I am going to spread as much hate for them as possible. I shall make sure of it that NOBODY ever joins there ISP, if they ask my opinion.

[Bonglet]

Were still waiting for any answers to go with the more.

[Portly_Giraffe]

Originally Posted by amateria

I suggest sending a registered letter to the registered office of the ISPs, giving notice . . .

I assume legal notices under RIPA should be served on Company Secretaries e.g.:
Andrew Parker
Company Secretary
BT Group
81 Newgate Street
London
EC1A 7AJ

I could put up the proposed text along with addresses (plus maybe the banking template) at http://www.inphormationdesk.org if you want - let me know if that's OK.

[amateria]

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

I assume legal notices under RIPA should be served on Company Secretaries e.g.:
Andrew Parker
Company Secretary
BT Group
81 Newgate Street
London
EC1A 7AJ

I could put up the proposed text along with addresses (plus maybe the banking template) at http://www.inphormationdesk.org if you want - let me know if that's OK.

Please do

[Pasanonic]

Originally Posted by 80/20Thinking

Folks, can you release me for a while? I know there are many questions I haven't yet answered, but pressing work awaits me and I must get it finished before the new week begins. I'll do my best to come back tomorrow and give you more answers.

Simon

Personally? I will release you without objection and reiterate my thanks for you taking the time to answer questions today. You are the best placed to do so and i think this has been a very informative day for both of us.

As Alexander has said, please don't confuse a heightened passion for personal attacks. My respect for you as an individual remains as high as it ever was ( that,'s not cryptic, it was quite high to begin with )

Thanks again and hopefully if people get used to you posting here the dialogue can settle to something easy and productive.

kindest regards

Craig.