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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
Voters: 1003. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 14-08-2008, 17:51   #14041
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Any news, Alex?
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Old 14-08-2008, 17:58   #14042
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Can we not use provocative images please - The topic is Phorm. Anything else will be deleted.
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Old 14-08-2008, 18:06   #14043
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Any news yet, Alex?
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Old 14-08-2008, 18:07   #14044
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Can we not use provocative images please - The topic is Phorm. Anything else will be deleted.
I apologise - (but it was funny and I found it by accident)
 
Old 14-08-2008, 18:25   #14045
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamsterWheel View Post
And who do you think pays for that insurance and all the losses ?
Ordinary customers like you and me with higher interest rates and bank charges.
Just like all other types of fraud, and people who don't pay their loans back.

And to extend the argument - would you rather Plod devoted their resources to investigating Phorm or to catching a rapist ? With limited resources they should concentrate on the important crimes.
Bank fraud insurance is a low cost policy what with all the checks and balances in place.
Now people who don't pay their loans back are not neccessarily defrauding the company fraud and an inability to pay or poor credit assessment are two different things.
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Old 14-08-2008, 19:03   #14046
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
I have given the officer in charge until 4pm to re-clarify their position before I publish his initial reaction on the phone earlier today. Given his reaction it would really be prudent of him to get back to me because if I was him I would not want my name on an audio recording saying what he said given the attention this issue has received from the EU Commission. Let's just say his initial reaction was very poor and actually very rude; so he has a chance to redeem himself before I go to press.

Alexander Hanff
Did you inform the officer that you were recording the call? If you didn't and make the information avaliable you are breaking the RIPA act 2000 there are exceptions to the act but would you really be willing to run the risk especially as the whole basis of your agrument is based on privacy, does he deserve none then?

Of course I could be wrong and you informed him he was being taped and the officer concerned is just very dim.

---------- Post added at 18:03 ---------- Previous post was at 18:02 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation View Post
How dare you try to put a monetary value on civil rights like privacy.

Article 2: Right to Life

What price would you put on my life? Does that mean we shouldn't investigate murders if people of 'insignificant value' are killed?

Article 4: Slavery

Self evidently, slaves lives are worthless people. Lets ignore slavery too.


Article 8: Right to privacy

Either I buy my privacy back from Kent Ertugrul, or I get Phormed. So I wrote my own browser plug in, and switched ISP instead.

Pete.
I don't think he was and even if he were, how dare you compare people knowing your browsing habits with slavery and murder, a little perspective might be in order imo
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Old 14-08-2008, 19:16   #14047
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
Did you inform the officer that you were recording the call? If you didn't and make the information avaliable you are breaking the RIPA act 2000 there are exceptions to the act but would you really be willing to run the risk especially as the whole basis of your agrument is based on privacy, does he deserve none then?

Of course I could be wrong and you informed him he was being taped and the officer concerned is just very dim.
Actually it is nothing to do with RIPA as RIPA covers interception. the regulations which cover recording phone calls are DPA not RIPA and DPA does not include organisations/companies or public authorities, only individuals. I did my home work on this before recording the call.

Any individual may record a conversation with a company/organisation or public authority without needing to inform them, the other way round though (company, public authority or organisation recording the call, needs consent).

Alexander Hanff
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Old 14-08-2008, 19:17   #14048
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
Did you inform the officer that you were recording the call? If you didn't and make the information avaliable you are breaking the RIPA act 2000 there are exceptions to the act but would you really be willing to run the risk especially as the whole basis of your agrument is based on privacy, does he deserve none then?

Of course I could be wrong and you informed him he was being taped and the officer concerned is just very dim.
Individuals may record private phone calls so long as the phone call is not made available to a third party.

Now, assuming Alex made the notes by hand and kept the recording as evidence in case he should want to check his notes, I'm not sure what the legal position would be, but investigative journalists and even general reporters would have a problem. If I can't say I spoke to X about Y and he said ... then we would have a serious problem!


Check the Ofcom website:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archi...qs/prvfaq3.htm

Quote:
Can I record telephone conversations on my home phone?

Yes. The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use. Recording or monitoring are only prohibited where some of the contents of the communication - which can be a phone conversation or an e-mail - are made available to a third party, ie someone who was neither the caller or sender nor the intended recipient of the original communication. For further information see the Home Office website where RIPA is posted.
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Old 14-08-2008, 19:26   #14049
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by oblonsky View Post
Individuals may record private phone calls so long as the phone call is not made available to a third party.
Just to clarify, the reason you get messages saying calls will recorded for training purposes when you phone various companies is because of DPA not RIPA as when you call a company they always require verification by asking you for personally identifiable data.

As has already been established (there is an article about this on Consumer Action Group's web site) individuals do not need consent to record a call with a company/organisation or public authority. The Information Commissioner's Office recently confirmed this when they told Steven Mainwaring that companies and organisations are not covered by DPA.

Furthermore, I am 99% certain that public authorities are afforded zero protection under either Act as they are public authorities (same reason defamation does not exist for public authorities). If the officer had wished to keep his conversation with me confidential, he should not have had the conversation in the first place as all information given out by public authorities should (iirc) be classed as being in the public domain.

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Old 14-08-2008, 19:28   #14050
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by oblonsky View Post
Individuals may record private phone calls so long as the phone call is not made available to a third party.

Now, assuming Alex made the notes by hand and kept the recording as evidence in case he should want to check his notes, I'm not sure what the legal position would be, but investigative journalists and even general reporters would have a problem. If I can't say I spoke to X about Y and he said ... then we would have a serious problem!


Check the Ofcom website:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archi...qs/prvfaq3.htm
The legal position is he/jurnos can't use them, he can legitimately say he was recording for research purposes only, they cannot publish quotes or the gist of the conversation. As I said there are exceptions to this rule, you could agrue it's in the public interest for instance however given the nature of the campaign imo it's morally suspect to put one group of peoples right to privacy above anothers.
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Old 14-08-2008, 19:34   #14051
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I have to go to work now but I will update the NoDPI web site tomorrow with the details of the call.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
The legal position is he/jurnos can't use them, he can legitimately say he was recording for research purposes only, they cannot publish quotes or the gist of the conversation. As I said there are exceptions to this rule, you could agrue it's in the public interest for instance however given the nature of the campaign imo it's morally suspect to put one group of peoples right to privacy above anothers.
Actually he gave his informed consent for me to quote him. And this is not about "one group of people's right to privacy" the police have no right to privacy they are a public authority and everything they do is open to public inquiry (which is why Freedom of Information Act exists). if it had been a private conversation about something not related to a public matter (such as how his holiday was or how his kids are) that would be afforded a right to privacy, but not something he says as part of his official role as a police officer.

Oh and furthermore, I made it very clear to him during the conversation that the reason for my call was because the press/media and public have been asking for an update on the case, so frankly he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

There is a huge difference.

Alexander Hanff
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Old 14-08-2008, 19:46   #14052
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
Actually he gave his informed consent for me to quote him.
Why not just say that at the start, I put enough question marks in the first post

Quote:
And this is not about "one group of people's right to privacy" the police have no right to privacy they are a public authority and everything they do is open to public inquiry

There is a huge difference.
Not as I stated in terms of your campaign there isn't imo, not that it's relevant anymore, considering he gave his permission
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Old 14-08-2008, 20:15   #14053
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
I don't think he was and even if he were, how dare you compare people knowing your browsing habits with slavery and murder, a little perspective might be in order imo
You and I have rights guaranteed by the European Conventions on Human Rights.

They aren't covered by an economic threshold, and states are obliged to investigate complaints.

The point you missed was this. Our fluffy rodent friend attempted to argue that privacy does not merit law enforcement, because there will always be more economically significant crimes for the police to investigate.

I disagree. All my human rights are priceless. And the Police are obliged to enforce them.
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Old 14-08-2008, 20:26   #14054
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Has anyone queried Virgin media's terms and conditions yet on vm if not i will do just since the virgin media name rebranding in feb of 2007 they slipped this in.

http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...ble/terms.html

Section G

# You must give us promptly and accurately all the information which may be needed so that we and Virgin Media Payments can perform our respective obligations under this agreement. You must also tell us immediately if any of your details change.
# By having the services we provide installed in your home and/or by using them you are giving us your consent to use your personal information together with other information for the purposes of providing you with our services, service information and updates, administration, credit scoring, customer services, training, tracking use of our services (including processing call, usage, billing, viewing and interactive data), profiling your usage and purchasing preferences for so long as you are a customer and for as long as is necessary for these specified purposes after you terminate your services. We may occasionally use third parties to process your personal information in the ways outlined above. These third parties are permitted to use the data only in accordance with our instructions.

Anyone here from virgin media who can expalin what the handling of profiling your usage and purchasing preferences relates too.
Specificaly why do virgin media want to know what i buy online and why and who deals with it?, i hope its not phorm because there not part of vm group.

(I think this is on topic and might be slipped in for phorm trials of 2007 feel fee to move it to a sepearte post if this is too offtopic mods - Profiling is such a key word for phorm in everything they try to do).
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Old 14-08-2008, 20:31   #14055
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post

how dare you compare people knowing your browsing habits with slavery and murder, a little perspective might be in order imo


Ignoring Peoples "Right to Privacy" is a form of Slavery & carried to the extreme can even be worse than Slavery!
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