Home News Forum Articles
  Welcome back Join CF
You are here You are here: Home | Forum | Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most of the discussions, articles and other free features. By joining our Virgin Media community you will have full access to all discussions, be able to view and post threads, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own images/photos, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please join our community today.


Welcome to Cable Forum
Go Back   Cable Forum > Virgin Media Services > Virgin Media Internet Service

Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
Voters: 1003. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 16-08-2008, 00:43   #14191
Dephormation
Inactive
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Bristol
Services: Aquiss.net and loving it. No more Virgin Media, no more Virgin Phone, no more Virgin Mobile.
Posts: 629
Dephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to all
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post

The good news is... I do now have that evidence. I was indeed a victim during the BT trials. I spend HOURS and HOURS, frustrated during the time I was not hard at work earning a salary, trying to help someone get their PC working as it should with access to the internet which they had enjoyed until the trial started.
Well done.

What were the dates? It would be interesting to correlate with other evidence. If you've got scans you're willing to share and upload of notes/screenshots/scans etc that might be valuable.

If I were you I would also send the data to the EC (Ms Reding and Mr Colasanti) on the assumption that the EC are investigating already.

Pete
Dephormation is offline  
Advertisement
Old 16-08-2008, 00:48   #14192
SelfProtection
Inactive
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 265
SelfProtection has a spectacular aura about themSelfProtection has a spectacular aura about themSelfProtection has a spectacular aura about themSelfProtection has a spectacular aura about them
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by daisey View Post
hi Hank
Yes, I do mean that the exercise was TERRIBLE in PR terms. I think that no matter what the intention (and I agree 100% that you have tons of support etc) that you (collective) must try to play on your opponents playing field.... and you are not doing that. Truely, if I was them I would take the photo of Alex Hanff there with three other people and send it straight to every single person i was trying to negotiate with to show them that I (phorm) am correct in saying you guys are a non-entity. also - last and not least- all those signatures are GREAT but what you need is PRESS. Being on the morally correct side is not enough.... you can be right and still the loser.

all i am saying is Be Smart. Play by their rules- not yours.

Otherwise you lose.
Wrong in this case if we play by their Rules we would lose.
The Overall evidence is on our side & it may take longer but in the end the evidence will speak for itself!
SelfProtection is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 00:49   #14193
Chris
Trollsplatter
Cable Forum Team
 
Chris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: North of Watford
Services: Humane elimination of all common Internet pests
Posts: 33,134
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Chris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden auraChris has a golden aura
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Enough, already. The sheer number of strawmen set up and demolished in this thread over the past couple of hours is nothing short of depressing, especially among a group of people who aspire to persuade the police, our legislators and anyone else who will listen of the rightness of their cause.

If any of you are in the mood to take advice - and on tonight's performance, I suspect many of you aren't, but here goes anyway - learn to read what's been said, and respond to the contents of it. Getting furious at someone simply because they are critical of your approach, or the approach of someone you respect, will ultimately get you nowhere and might actually cause you to lose the support of someone you need to have onside ... such as the esteemed Det. Sgt. Murray who, like it or not, is in charge of the Phorm complaint submitted by Alexander Hanff. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is a well-known saying for good reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post
I am not a "Phorm hater" (capitalisation on proper nouns is important, don't you think?)
Yes, very clever. I think you're also clever enough to understand my meaning in the deliberate use of leet-speak in my original post, which leaves me mystified as to why you're pretending not to get it now.

There is a coterie of hat3rz on this thread in the truest possible internet use of the term. Some of the responses I've had to my posts, in public and in private, are proof of that. There is little (or no) attempt to analyze and respond to the points I've made, whether critically or supportively (either would be nice, truly). There has simply been a tirade of objections that I dare open my mouth at all. Blindly thrashing out at someone for disagreeing with you, without engaging in any intellectual process at all, is what hat3rz do. But I think you already knew that.

Quote:
and although I am sure Alexander gets emotionally engaged because he feels passionately that there is a cause to pursue, I don't think that his blog is in any way grotty.
His investigative 'technique' is exposed in his conversation with DS Murray. You call it emotionally engaged, I call it bullying and grandstanding. Furthermore he has posted it up in a fashion that makes it almost impossible for the DS to exercise any kind of right of reply, because Alexander is pursuing his interests as a private citizen while the police officer is restrained by his positiion as a public servant. He doesn't have the liberty to come on here, or any other forum, and take a pop at Alexander in reply.

Posting those conversations was extremely poor judgement on Alexander's part. I think his blog deserves the term 'grotty' because of this and I stand by it.

Quote:
I have not listened to the audio, I don't think I need to, my own experience is that the police service are not equipped to deal with this issue, there are big issues for them to deal with, but they can't just ignore this. And we don't know what decisions are being taken behind the scenes at a higher level...
... and here you expose the monumental fallacy at the heart of your entire argument (such as it is). You haven't even listened to the very audio that gave rise to my central complaint when I posted earlier. So you reply to me, directly and indirectly, both publicly and in private, yet for all your impressive-sounding and lofty arguments you have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of the source material we're meant to be discussing.

That, and I mean this sincerely, is pathetic.

Quote:
After my last ditch attempt to progress here, it will be off to the EU and Commissioner Redding.
Another disappointing aspect of Alexander's conversation with DS Murray, which I had intended to raise with him should he wish to respond to me later, was his willingness to name-drop a member of the House of Lords and the fact that he had a three hour meeting with him. Name-dropping institutions and influential individuals can be construed as grand-standing, or playing to the gallery. In Alexander's case it seemed to be an attempt to get the DS to start being more compliant. But then, as you haven't listened to it, you have no idea what I'm talking about, have you?

Quote:
Existing members here - stay with it. New members, don't drop out because of one bad night. There's always a big negative debate when news which is anti-Phorm is published (don't know why, but it is true, every time)

Hank
While I disagree, strongly, with what Phorm is trying to do, I do not belive some of the batty, amateurish tactics being discussed and, apparently, employed by certain people who have posted in this thread are the best means of fighting against them.

You think this was a bad night? I intend to point out such nonsense wherever I find it and challenge those who want to take the fight to Phorm to do so in a way that is likely to get them listened to, and not merely dismissed as a lunatic fringe. Frankly, on current evidence, I will be very surprised if DS Murray has not already cateorized Alexander in this way.

I sit and await the inevitable flood of objections from those who can't tell the difference between trolling and honest, adult debate.

Anyone with anything constructive to say, however, please, I'll be delighted to hear it, whether you agree with me or not.
Chris is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 00:55   #14194
daisey
Inactive
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4
daisey is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelfProtection View Post
Wrong in this case if we play by their Rules we would lose.
The Overall evidence is on our side & it may take longer but in the end the evidence will speak for itself!
OK I am only putting my two cents in. I have read this thread and never participated.

I wish you the best of luck though.

I work in PR and you are doing yourselves a lot of damage in my opinion- hence i wanted to offer up an opinion.

What you seem to not see is that I agree that the evidence is on your side. What you do not understand is that NO ONE cares- not in a real get the press kind of way- so be right and have it take longer. I really fear it will take a seriously long time given current strategy.

i do hope i am wrong.
daisey is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 00:56   #14195
Dephormation
Inactive
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Bristol
Services: Aquiss.net and loving it. No more Virgin Media, no more Virgin Phone, no more Virgin Mobile.
Posts: 629
Dephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to all
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by daisey View Post
all i am saying is Be Smart. Play by their rules- not yours.
If there's one lesson to learn from Phorm's PR strategy its this; don't copy any aspect of their PR strategy. It has been an unmitigated disaster from start to finish.

As for the demo, it could have been better attended. But Phorm's counter demonstration wasn't well attended either, no one turned up to that one.

During the AGM Mr. Livingston was unable to say the words 'Phorm' or 'Webwise' in his presentations to the shareholders. So we managed to help him out, helped him to get the topic aired in front of the Chairman, shareholders and press. I think he was very grateful for that, but didn't get a chance to say so.

And many of the shareholders who were unaware came to talk to us afterwards, surprised and horrified that BT were doing this.

If we hadn't been there, it would never have happened.

But, whatever, I enjoyed it. And if there is going to be another demonstration, I will clear my diary again, and I will be there.

I hope you'll join me, and share one of Madslug's excellent sandwiches, and a laugh at BT's expense.
Dephormation is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 00:56   #14196
Rchivist
Inactive
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 831
Rchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of QuadsRchivist has a fine set of Quads
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by daisey View Post
hi Hank
Yes, I do mean that the exercise was TERRIBLE in PR terms. I think that no matter what the intention (and I agree 100% that you have tons of support etc) that you (collective) must try to play on your opponents playing field.... and you are not doing that. Truely, if I was them I would take the photo of Alex Hanff there with three other people and send it straight to every single person i was trying to negotiate with to show them that I (phorm) am correct in saying you guys are a non-entity. also - last and not least- all those signatures are GREAT but what you need is PRESS. Being on the morally correct side is not enough.... you can be right and still the loser.

all i am saying is Be Smart. Play by their rules- not yours.

Otherwise you lose.
Daisey - one of the tremendously effective parts of the demonstration was the attendance of Baroness Miller, who has since being at the demonstration and meeting people personally, has been a tower of strength in the House of Lords asking extremely intelligent well INphormed questions of Home Office and DBERR, questions that can't be easily ignored.

This battle won't be won by PR spin but by persistent telling of the truth, again and again, to the right people in the right places.

Personally, if I had the Phorm showing me their "photo of the 3" alongside the campaigners alerting me to the articles that have been in the press and on the BBC Technology site about EU intervention, Congressional investigation,and the current list of unanswered questions from Lord Northesk and Baroness Miller, etc. I know which would impress me the most.But I am biassed!

I'm in for the long haul. All participants welcome. Cool heads especially valued.

I'm also aware that a few pages back we were reminded that it is "extremely bad Phorm" to discuss the goings on in other forums, so I shan't add to the discussion of the content of noDPI.org
Rchivist is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 01:02   #14197
Cobbydaler
Inactive
 
Cobbydaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Clawson, MI
Services: Comcast cable TV/Internet. Verizon cellphone, HTC One M9
Posts: 9,614
Cobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered stars
Cobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered stars
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones View Post
Daisey - one of the tremendously effective parts of the demonstration was the attendance of Baroness Miller, who has since being at the demonstration and meeting people personally, has been a tower of strength in the House of Lords asking extremely intelligent well INphormed questions of Home Office and DBERR, questions that can't be easily ignored.

This battle won't be won by PR spin but by persistent telling of the truth, again and again, to the right people in the right places.

Personally, if I had the Phorm showing me their "photo of the 3" alongside the campaigners alerting me to the articles that have been in the press and on the BBC Technology site about EU intervention, Congressional investigation,and the current list of unanswered questions from Lord Northesk and Baroness Miller, etc. I know which would impress me the most.But I am biassed!

I'm in for the long haul. All participants welcome. Cool heads especially valued.
Well, I'm afraid cool heads are conspicuously absent from this thread.

That is a personal opinion by the way...
Cobbydaler is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 01:07   #14198
Dephormation
Inactive
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Bristol
Services: Aquiss.net and loving it. No more Virgin Media, no more Virgin Phone, no more Virgin Mobile.
Posts: 629
Dephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to allDephormation is a name known to all
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones View Post
This battle won't be won by PR spin but by persistent telling of the truth, again and again, to the right people in the right places.
Have to agree completely there.

PR spin is not required, and adds no value. No spin is required to convey the truth.

Certainly more press coverage would be welcome, but whenever the press have been approached they've been reluctant to cover this for reasons we can only speculate about.

With the exception of Chris Williams at The Register, who deserves a nomination for a journalism award, after this sorry episode is over.

No worry, and you say Rob, I'm in this for as long as it takes.

Pete.
Dephormation is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 01:11   #14199
SelfProtection
Inactive
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 265
SelfProtection has a spectacular aura about themSelfProtection has a spectacular aura about themSelfProtection has a spectacular aura about themSelfProtection has a spectacular aura about them
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
Well, I'm afraid cool heads are conspicuously absent from this thread.

That is a personal opinion by the way...

Speaking to you as a poster & not as a Moderator, who has managed to heat the other posters up the most this evening.

Your points do have merits, but you should debate them in an ordered fashion or tempers are likely to flair in both directions.
SelfProtection is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 01:17   #14200
mark777
Inactive
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Services: 0.4 Mbps BB + Phone
Posts: 447
mark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of lightmark777 is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris T View Post
{snip}
While I disagree, strongly, with what Phorm is trying to do, I do not belive some of the batty, amateurish tactics being discussed and, apparently, employed by certain people who have posted in this thread are the best means of fighting against them.

You think this was a bad night? I intend to point out such nonsense wherever I find it and challenge those who want to take the fight to Phorm to do so in a way that is likely to get them listened to, and not merely dismissed as a lunatic fringe. Frankly, on current evidence, I will be very surprised if DS Murray has not already cateorized Alexander in this way.

I sit and await the inevitable flood of objections from those who can't tell the difference between trolling and honest, adult debate.

Anyone with anything constructive to say, however, please, I'll be delighted to hear it, whether you agree with me or not.
Serious question.

What do you suggest as the best way forward?

For all the faults of this thread, I think it has always been open to debate various strategies.
mark777 is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 01:17   #14201
Cobbydaler
Inactive
 
Cobbydaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Clawson, MI
Services: Comcast cable TV/Internet. Verizon cellphone, HTC One M9
Posts: 9,614
Cobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered stars
Cobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered starsCobbydaler is seeing silvered stars
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SelfProtection View Post
Speaking to you as a poster & not as a Moderator, who has managed to heat the other posters up the most this evening.

Your points do have merits, but you should debate them in an ordered fashion or tempers are likely to flair in both directions.
As that was my first post this evening, I fail to see your point...

However, I stand by my only post of the evening, cool heads are (of late) absent in this thread.

As before, this is a personal opinion...
Cobbydaler is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 01:19   #14202
JackSon
Inactive
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Age: 39
Services: Freeview, BT Ultrafast Fibre 2
Posts: 330
JackSon is a splendid one to beholdJackSon is a splendid one to beholdJackSon is a splendid one to beholdJackSon is a splendid one to beholdJackSon is a splendid one to beholdJackSon is a splendid one to beholdJackSon is a splendid one to beholdJackSon is a splendid one to beholdJackSon is a splendid one to behold
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation View Post
Have to agree completely there.

PR spin is not required, and adds no value. No spin is required to convey the truth.

Certainly more press coverage would be welcome, but whenever the press have been approached they've been reluctant to cover this for reasons we can only speculate about.

With the exception of Chris Williams at The Register, who deserves a nomination for a journalism award, after this sorry episode is over.

No worry, and you say Rob, I'm in this for as long as it takes.

Pete.
Agreed twice (Blazing Saddles quote - Howard Johnson is right!).

PR is oly needed when you are trying to sell something (or trying to dupe people, or perhaps both). The truth doesn't need selling. It could do with publicising however, granted, but if it is to finally get though the legal system (with help from our european friends) then that would in itself generate news. The difference however is that the 'PR' therefore would be a product of the truth being found out, not the cause of.
JackSon is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 01:21   #14203
Tarquin L-Smythe
Inactive
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Reading Berks
Services: BT Broadband BT Vision Sky
Posts: 104
Tarquin L-Smythe has a spectacular aura about themTarquin L-Smythe has a spectacular aura about themTarquin L-Smythe has a spectacular aura about themTarquin L-Smythe has a spectacular aura about them
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

So far what has been done and achieved has stopped the "soon" promised webwise trial from making an appearance once again but every week the brakes are going on the Phorm bandwaggon. I,m sure the police have got over this sort of thing before as the law is in the most part on their side.
Tarquin L-Smythe is offline  
Old 16-08-2008, 01:24   #14204
Hank
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones View Post
...
I'm in for the long haul. All participants welcome. Cool heads especially valued.

I'm also aware that a few pages back we were reminded that it is "extremely bad Phorm" to discuss the goings on in other forums, so I shan't add to the discussion of the content of noDPI.org
LOL Robert. And I am also in this for the long haul. I'll listen to that audio, but I'm confident it will be much the same I've heard from my local police and the same as others have heard from theirs. They are not trained to deal with RIPA issues, it's like expecting a General Practitioner to know what an Ear, Nose & Throat specialist knows about those parts of the anatomy! The police have my full support for the difficult role they play in society and it's the powers that be that need to carry the can for this mess they allowed to be created.

Yes, you're right, this is about continuing to progress with the facts about the key issues, via the relevant channels. That's why I have to "Go again" with our police, which may very well end in no further steps forward really (except educating them via forcing them to consider what their next move is, and they'll see what BT did is wrong, but that they still don't have the know-how or expertise to deal with it unfortunately)

Then I CAN go to the next stage via the EU - there's a link somewhere on this forum to the complaint form LOL. Was it Pete who said this... I will probably be best getting the detail to those on the continent sooner rather than later, so that's two photocopies needed.

DAISEY - Welcome on board... long journey ahead which might occasionally be diverted but we stay on course and when we get there it will be worth it, not just for us but for every internet user (except the dodgy advertiser middle man company!)

Hank
 
Old 16-08-2008, 01:34   #14205
TheDaddy
cf.mega pornstar
 
TheDaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,605
TheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver bling
TheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver blingTheDaddy has a lot of silver bling
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin T View Post
As that was my first post this evening, I fail to see your point...

However, I stand by my only post of the evening, cool heads are (of late) absent in this thread.

As before, this is a personal opinion...
He is asking you who has caused trouble this evening, presumably pointing the finger at ChrisT trouble is the truth hurts some times

Agree with you re the cool heads to, I mean some people participating in this thread actually put phorm on a par with slavery and murder
__________________
Sports Babble
TheDaddy is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 6 (0 members and 6 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:30.


Server: curium.zmnt.uk
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.