Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

Just seen Phorm & friends have tried to nominate Alex for KFO. They have failed already.

Kent got two SOS votes today - I think they are his first ever. What's the chances that the same people who posted those are the ones who KFO'd Alex?

In fact I'll bet that most of us could name at least one of those people?

[Wildie]

they maybe 3 now

[Green Disease]

Something I didn't mention earlier I'd like to thank the people who are trying to bring the ISP's to book. Every IT site I seem to read these days seems to mention the illegal trials.

Dephormation, I know where you are coming from regarding cancelling VM. I have looked into switching providers, something I would have never even thought of doing until I found out about Webwise. I'm quite some distance away from the exchange, plus would mean paying to have a BT line installed, although I believe that they are running an offer atm. There are other costs involved, in moving the other services. I'll do what VM are doing and sit on the fence for the time being.

I have read most of the details that have surfaced in regards to the BT trials and the Webwise system. Some of it regarding the technical analysis does go over my head a bit, but get the gist of most of it.

I am going back over stuff that I remember reading on this thread and elsewhere. Has anyone contacted/had any replies back from Google, in regards to BT/Phorm using the Googlebot to determine whether they are allowed to profile sites? Whether they are thinking of doing what Phorm are doing?

It would be interesting if Google were to take action against BT/Phorm and block all BT's IP's, if they were to ever do another trial? It would be fun to see the BT execs and Kent's face, as he always seems happy, to want to chuck mud at Google.(Not saying Google are much better, at least I have a choice in whether to use Google or not, without having to switch ISP's).

I'm with BT and I've advised people on the BT forums not to rush to change suppliers just yet - unless they can get a better deal or better service - just because of Phorm.

If BT do introduce the system it is extremely likely that every single ISP will be doing the same thing within months and at least BT is on it's back foot in the "keeping things secret" stakes so fence-sitting is a very sensible thing to do at the mo.

The only thing I would advise is that no-one takes on a new fixed-term contract and if their ISP contacts them asking them to renew I suggest refusing and telling them why.

[Dephormation]

If you do decide to sit on the fence, I'd strongly recommend you send one of these if you haven't done it already;

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/dpa_notices/

It should help if you later discover BT/Virgin have been up to something naughty.

In my view, the safest best is moving ISP now, particularly if you're on BT (both because they've trialled in the past without telling you, and because they say they will only give you 24 hrs notice... yet it takes 5 days to get a MAC code).

Given Gavin Patterson's statements at the AGM, if you are on BT and fence sitting, call BT now and ask for a MAC code so that you can move if you need to (don't take any rubbish about the system being 'down', its always 'down', and you are entitled to receive your MAC code in 5 days).

Also, while I'm plugging my letter wizards, use one of these to get talking with your MP;

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/letters/

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by Green Disease

First time poster long time lurker. I have followed this issue for several months, after first reading about it on El reg. I have had Virgin Media broadband for several years. In the whole it has been pretty good, although the past 6 months I have seen a downturn in the service. Connection issues such as DNS, DHCP problems, blank pages loading. The other day I had a blank browser page suddenly pop-up with an URL I had looked at earlier in the day. Had me paranoid, so did virus scan etc..

Virgin Media have been a little too quiet for my liking in regard to how deep they are in with Phorm. From Virgins own site "we have run a small technical lab test on a private internal network, not connected to the internet". Interesting how they add the last 5 words. Not sure how much they would glean from such a test.

If they were to introduce Webwise, they would lose all 4 services we have with them, even though it would cost a small fortune to move to other suppliers. I would make sure the whole estate knows about the scumware.

Clearly BT have jumped in with both feet, and are tied into a least doing a large scale trial. They probably have already purchased the servers required, and are currently gathering dust somewhere. I have read I few comments about whether Phorm kit is still sat on the Kingston RAS. Has anyone asked them that question?

I have been looking at the illegal downloads issue and found a link to the consultation paper that BERR have produced:-http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file47139.pdf

Alternative regulatory options considered:

Option A4: Requiring that ISPs allow the installation of filtering equipment
that will block infringing content (to reduce the level of copyright infringement taking
place over the internet) or requiring ISPs themselves to install filtering equipment that
will block infringing content.

I take it Phorms system could quite easily do this.

Hmmm interesting conversation between ISP's and government departments.
ISP: You want us to crack down on illegal activity, we have been in touch with a company called Phorm that have the technology called webwise which can see everything users visit on the internet, and there fore allows us to block infringing content. We gain revenue from the targeted ads we provide to our customers, but it also allows us to do the biding of your paymasters so its in both our interests.

Government: Sounds good to me, we cant see anything wrong with this, you'll be providing a valuable service to your customers......and to the government.

I find it rather unnerving that the government seems to be turning a blind eye to Webwise/Phorm, there's something bigger afoot. I will continue following this issue, as I believe that Webwise and other similar projects will break the WWW.

Welcome and great find. I'll study that document today. I think it opens up a new route for some focussed FOI requests to DBERR and also for informing MP's. I'll certainly be telling mine.

---------- Post added at 08:59 ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 ----------

It occurs to me - is anyone in touch with the security services? I know it sounds daft - but it seems to me that although this "sounds" like it might have the security services at the back of it (snoop on the internet- great idea) the reality might be that it is all a politicians idea, (think of a conversation between Jim Hacker PM and Arnold - the retired cabinet secretary, publicly heading up the Freedom of Information campaign but secretly representing an entirely different agenda - Hacker in favour of DPI, and Arnold explaining gently to him that introducing DPI would be a very BAD idea) - maybe the real spooks are aghast - because of the massive level of public distrust it generates, and because it will lead to a rise in encrypted communication which they simply can't deal with.

Anyone got experience in talking to the spooks?
Counter terrorism - Special Branch - MI5 and MI6 "SIS" etc.

I think the sort of letter needed would be a clear summary of the situation so far (including the DBERR documents about filesharing), a very simple explanation of the kit and what it does, and an explanation of the likely outcome in terms of loss of trust in the internet and the rise in encrypted communication (which would become cheaper and more widely available if Phorm is introduced widely) with the implications of that, for the costs and feasibility of legitimate "routine" surveillance activity.

Any thoughts?

[Raistlin]

I sincerely doubt that you'll get a response of any substance from either MI5 or MI6.

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by Green Disease

I am going back over stuff that I remember reading on this thread and elsewhere. Has anyone contacted/had any replies back from Google, in regards to BT/Phorm using the Googlebot to determine whether they are allowed to profile sites? Whether they are thinking of doing what Phorm are doing?

It would be interesting if Google were to take action against BT/Phorm and block all BT's IP's, if they were to ever do another trial? It would be fun to see the BT execs and Kent's face, as he always seems happy, to want to chuck mud at Google.(Not saying Google are much better, at least I have a choice in whether to use Google or not, without having to switch ISP's).

I wrote to google ages ago. No reply. (So that is BT Retail legal department, BT DPA request, ICO, Google, and a few others, including half my MEP's who haven't replied.)

But no reason not to write. I never worry too much about not getting replies. the letter still makes them think.

---------- Post added at 09:05 ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Rob M

I sincerely doubt that you'll get a response of any substance from either MI5 or MI6.

I wasn't worried about getting a reply!

---------- Post added at 09:12 ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 ----------

It occurs to me that even a CAT or a parrot can sign up to BT Webwise and effect a change in the primary account holders T&C's and hence, contract with the ISP. One keypress required when the invitation arrives - no password, no login.

M'Lud - my client BT plc holds that the cat and the parrot are legally competent and this contract is valid and enforceable. I rest my paws/beak.

[warescouse]

Originally Posted by R Jones

I wrote to google ages ago. No reply. (So that is BT Retail legal department, BT DPA request, ICO, Google, and a few others, including half my MEP's who haven't replied.)

But no reason not to write. I never worry too much about not getting replies. the letter still makes them think.

---------- Post added at 09:05 ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 ----------



I wasn't worried about getting a reply!

---------- Post added at 09:12 ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 ----------

It occurs to me that even a CAT or a parrot can sign up to BT Webwise and effect a change in the primary account holders T&C's and hence, contract with the ISP. One keypress required when the invitation arrives - no password, no login.

M'Lud - my client BT plc holds that the cat and the parrot are legally competent and this contract is valid and enforceable. I rest my paws/beak.

The worrying thing is my cat regularly decides that she wants to attract my attention by walking on my keyboard whilst I am on-line. I shall attempt to inphorm her.

Originally Posted by R Jones

It occurs to me that even a Cat or a parrot can sign up to BT Webwise and effect a change in the primary account holders T&C's and hence, contract with the ISP. One keypress required when the invitation arrives - no password, no login.

M'Lud - my client BT plc holds that the cat and the parrot are legally competent and this contract is valid and enforceable. I rest my paws/beak.

LOL Mr Jones, very funny!! Absolutely possible given the limited info about the opt in/out page they have shared with their customers. ROFL!

-----------

Originally Posted by Dephormation

...call BT now and ask for a MAC code so that you can move if you need to (don't take any rubbish about the system being 'down', its always 'down', and you are entitled to receive your MAC code in 5 days).

Indeed. If you get any resistance, just say you've already checked with OFCOM and you know your rights... could they just check the system again and see if it is coming back up online, you're happy to hold for them... The system might suddenly be working after 30-60secs on hold - worked for me. Oh, when you first get through and they say they are going to put you through to x, stop them! Ask them to check first that x is there and able to take the call. I also had a couple of times when I got a "Sorry this line is not available, please call back later" type messages until I used this tactic. I have got my MAC code now (valid until August) and when it expires I shall get another, ...and another..., until they decide what they are doing with the Webwise Phorm abhorent product and then I will decide (Should I stay or Shoud I Go...?)

...Make sure you use a free 0800 number to call them - I always look up 0870/0844/0845 numbers on www.SayNoTo0870.com to get the number I can dial free or included in my minutes bundle

Hank

[Florence]

LOL R Jones my cats have often walked across my keyboard one cat bless her she died last year used to move in and lie on it if she wanted attention and I was too busy...
But I wouldn't use BT for my internet just like I n o longer use Virgin Media for my intewrnet, mind they are trying to take over £30 for my last days billing so we now have th letter battle for a total breakdown on how they come up with the charges considering I moved last year to the 2meg BB and phone as I was only on incapaccity so could no longer afford their 4meg package, seems billing was amended to reflect my wishes but the package wasn't. Who is at fault me or them.... the fight will go on.

Originally Posted by Peter N

I'm with BT and I've advised people on the BT forums not to rush to change suppliers just yet - unless they can get a better deal or better service - just because of Phorm.

If BT do introduce the system it is extremely likely that every single ISP will be doing the same thing within months and at least BT is on it's back foot in the "keeping things secret" stakes so fence-sitting is a very sensible thing to do at the mo.

The only thing I would advise is that no-one takes on a new fixed-term contract and if their ISP contacts them asking them to renew I suggest refusing and telling them why.

Entanet is a large company reselling IPstream on their own centrals they have no intentions of adding phorm since majority of their customers are business customers.
Zen have their own centrals plus some LLU in Rochdale they are also not planning on implementing Phorm on their network.

If you go via a small ISP that uses BT managed then Phorm on 21cn could be implemented so you have to check how they new ISP is supplied.

I have to say my service since leaving Virgin Media has been excelent i get faster speeds 24/7 if it slows down in the evening I still have a respectable 2meg unlike VM 512k

[bluecar1]

an interesting find due to the new copyright thread

from http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988...-ch2-pb1-l1g16

Rights of Copyright Owner

The acts restricted by copyright

16 The acts restricted by copyright in a work (1) The owner of the copyright in a work has, in accordance with the following provisions of this Chapter, the exclusive right to do the following acts in the United Kingdom—
(a) to copy the work (see section 17);
(b) to issue copies of the work to the public (see section 18);
(c) to perform, show or play the work in public (see section 19);
(d) to broadcast the work or include it in a cable programme service (see section 20);
(e) to make an adaptation of the work or do any of the above in relation to an adaptation (see section 21);
and those acts are referred to in this Part as the “acts restricted by the copyright”.
(2) Copyright in a work is infringed by a person who without the licence of the copyright owner does, or authorises another to do, any of the acts restricted by the copyright.
(3) References in this Part to the doing of an act restricted by the copyright in a work are to the doing of it—
(a) in relation to the work as a whole or any substantial part of it, and
(b) either directly or indirectly; and it is immaterial whether any intervening acts themselves infringe copyright.
(4) This Chapter has effect subject to—
(a) the provisions of Chapter III (acts permitted in relation to copyright works), and
(b) the provisions of Chapter VII (provisions with respect to copyright licensing).

17 Infringement of copyright by copying
(1) The copying of the work is an act restricted by the copyright in every description of copyright work; and references in this Part to copying and copies shall be construed as follows.
(2) Copying in relation to a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work means reproducing the work in any material form.
This includes storing the work in any medium by electronic means.
(3) In relation to an artistic work copying includes the making of a copy in three dimensions of a two-dimensional work and the making of a copy in two dimensions of a three-dimensional work.
(4) Copying in relation to a film, television broadcast or cable programme includes making a photograph of the whole or any substantial part of any image forming part of the film, broadcast or cable programme.
(5) Copying in relation to the typographical arrangement of a published edition means making a facsimile copy of the arrangement.
(6) Copying in relation to any description of work includes the making of copies which are transient or are incidental to some other use of the work.

there is more but i will not dilute the thread here, well done to felix the cat over on BT forums

the discussion on copyright is here

so the initial mirror copy and the derivative work are both covered under "Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988" and it is BT's / Phorm problem to ensure they do not break it, 16(2) above makes that clear

peter

[warescouse]

Some interesting documents on ukcrypto mentioned in a mailing by Simon Watkin.
Here

Originally Posted by bluecar1

the discussion on copyright is here


peter

That link doesn't work (for me, anyway). Try this one
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=5239&tstart=0

[Rchivist]

Originally Posted by bluecar1

an interesting find due to the new copyright thread

snip

there is more but i will not dilute the thread here, well done to felix the cat over on BT forums

the discussion on copyright is here
peter

Good point and well done!

When quoting links from BT Beta forums it is best to be logged OUT of the forum before copying the link. Links when you are logged IN will only work for another logged in member of BT Beta forums. (It is a wonderful piece of forum software they use over there - like trying to drive a car while wearing a full diving suit and a blindfold - but that's BT for you)

If you want to post over on BT Beta and in particular in any of the less obviously "webwise" places on that forum (there is only ONE official Webwise thread - we call it our Webwise ghetto) please PM me first. I'll explain in the PM what is going on there to widen customer awareness of Webwise despite forum restrictions. It would be helpful if anyone who posts there outside the official webwise ghetto thread, understands how to avoid spoiling the discussion. It's all in a good cause - INphorming lots more people with the aim of REphorming them.

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 ----------

Originally Posted by warescouse

The worrying thing is my cat regularly decides that she wants to attract my attention by walking on my keyboard whilst I am on-line. I shall attempt to inphorm her.

Even better, get her to write to BT. She can ask about the Webwise invitation page and say she is worried about getting into trouble and will she be responsible for altering the T&C's and would she have to testify in court? If you are good at puns, then it could be a most amusing letter - but send it to the legal boys - they may get the point - and if it's funny, they will read it to the end. (and delay the trials a bit more)

Phrases like contract claws, paws for thought, fit fur purrpose, within a whisker of getting sued, spring to mind - I'm sure you can think of more.

I'm serious!! Why is everyone ROFL'ing