Catholic Church admits Bible is BS

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

Depends on if he is Catholic or not hahaha

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My point is you refuse to recognise my Christianity yet whether Catholic or Protestant are either following a religion that in all of its history have breached the teaching of the Christ and lets face it the Catholics have an incredibly brutal history (Spanish inquisition etc) or firstly developed by a King who wanted his cake and eat it (well oats anyway)

You do know the Spanish Inquisition was far less likely to order torture or execution than the secular courts of the time don't you?

Have a good look at exactly what our organisation does for its brothers and sisters around the world and trust what ever organisation you are with will have its own issues and agendas

Bit ike the freemasons

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You do know the Spanish Inquisition was far less likely to order torture or execution than the secular courts of the time don't you?



Bit ike the freemasons

No idea how the Freemasons operate. But JW operate on a 100% voluntary donation basis We build and maintain our own Kingdom Halls our donations supports our brothers and sister around the world who are in need. We supply free of charge literature to anyone who wants it and unfortunately in a number of countries in the world we are persecuted and imprisoned for our beliefs. Our brothers were also persecuted during WWII by the Nazis and imprisoned in concentration camps.

If that is how the Freemasons operate then ok

I guess like the Freemasons though I can turn up to any Kingdom hall in the world and be treated like a brother and I personally have 150+ people in the local congregation I can trust absolutely

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

No idea how the Freemasons operate. But JW operate on a 100% voluntary donation basis We build and maintain our own Kingdom Halls our donations supports our brothers and sister around the world who are in need. We supply free of charge literature to anyone who wants it and unfortunately in a number of countries in the world we are persecuted and imprisoned for our beliefs. Our brothers were also persecuted during WWII by the Nazis and imprisoned in concentration camps.

If that is how the Freemasons operate then ok

I guess like the Freemasons though I can turn up to any Kingdom hall in the world and be treated like a brother and I personally have 150+ people in the local congregation I can trust absolutely

Were no female JWs imprisoned, or is "brother" a generic term for JW's?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

I am a Jehovah's Witness and as such preach the word of God continually in my neighbourhood something that Christ asked of his followers and told them to continue doing. After all for the end to come the word has to be preached everywhere

And there you have the problem, as with most/all monotheistic religions, the need to evangelise. The late, great Christopher Hitchens could not have put it better:

…I’m perfectly happy for people to have these toys and to play with them at home and hug them to themselves and share them with other people who come around to play with their toys. So that’s absolutely fine. They are not to make me play with these toys. I will not play with the toys. Don’t bring the toys to my house, don’t say my children must play with these toys, don’t say my toys…are not allowed by their toys.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Were no female JWs imprisoned, or is "brother" a generic term for JW's?

Yes they were. I have put brothers and sisters elsewhere it was simply just an error

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Originally Posted by ianch99

And there you have the problem, as with most/all monotheistic religions, the need to evangelise. The late, great Christopher Hitchens could not have put it better:

As I said I am a Christian even though that has been disputed and as such I follow the teachings of Christ. Christ instructed his disciples to spread the word, the bible says the kingdom must be preached to all corners of the world and then the end will come. We spread a message of hope and love. Yes it is most often rejected and we face hostility for doing it but the ministry is the most important thing a Christian can do. We have 8 million publishers world wide and we all go on the ministry in one way or another. I can count my time on this thread as minstry and when I get replies and respond it could be considered a return visit

Being a Jehovah's Witness is not easy, the way the world is is against and trust me I make plenty of mistakes

I did not blindly decide one day to become a witness and I was not born into a family of witnesses. I searched and researched and from what I could see the Witnesses try their best to live a life close to Christs principles and that is why I become a Witness

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

. Our brothers were also persecuted during WWII by the Nazis and imprisoned in concentration camps.

Again much like the freemasons, up to 200000 murdered and all their property confiscated

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Again much like the freemasons, up to 200000 murdered and all their property confiscated

is there a point?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

is there a point?

Not a massive one, just a lighthearted comparison that took a dark turn as things usually do when the holocaust is brought into a discussion

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

As I said I am a Christian even though that has been disputed and as such I follow the teachings of Christ. Christ instructed his disciples to spread the word, the bible says the kingdom must be preached to all corners of the world and then the end will come. We spread a message of hope and love. Yes it is most often rejected and we face hostility for doing it but the ministry is the most important thing a Christian can do. We have 8 million publishers world wide and we all go on the ministry in one way or another. I can count my time on this thread as minstry and when I get replies and respond it could be considered a return visit

Being a Jehovah's Witness is not easy, the way the world is is against and trust me I make plenty of mistakes

I did not blindly decide one day to become a witness and I was not born into a family of witnesses. I searched and researched and from what I could see the Witnesses try their best to live a life close to Christs principles and that is why I become a Witness

I do not dispute your conviction to proselytise, rather the moral aspect of attempting to impose your world view on other individuals. Just because a book written 2000 years ago demands you do this, does not make it appropriate or ethical.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I do not dispute your conviction to proselytise, rather the moral aspect of attempting to impose your world view on other individuals. Just because a book written 2000 years ago demands you do this, does not make it appropriate or ethical.

We do not try to impose anything we come round with information of a better way of living and a hope for the future. It is up to the individual if they want to listen. You will see/hear a far more aggressive and insulting approach from the atheist. How horrid we are to come out and offer you a hope of everlasting life on paradise Earth and a future of love and kindness with no pain or suffering.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

You will see/hear a far more aggressive and insulting approach from the atheist. How horrid we are to come out and offer you a hope of everlasting life on paradise Earth and a future of love and kindness with no pain or suffering.

I think you are resorting to deflection too easily. What atheists do or do not do is orthogonal to the matter being discussed. One neither validates or excuses the other.

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

We do not try to impose anything we come round with information of a better way of living and a hope for the future. It is up to the individual if they want to listen

I assume then you do not teach your children about your world view but rather wait until they are adults and so old enough to form an opinion? I would be interested to know your answer .. but I suspect I know it already.

Originally Posted by ianch99

I assume then you do not teach your children about your world view but rather wait until they are adults and so old enough to form an opinion? I would be interested to know your answer .. but I suspect I know it already.

I’ll jump in here …

this is a really old, and very, very silly argument, which presupposes that to teach children a faith is to teach them a world view, whereas not to do so is to not teach them a world view.

The truth is that every parent imparts a world view to their children. Those who think they are not doing so, simply because they’re not bringing their children up in a religious faith, are being naive at best, and duplicitous at worst. Children always learn a world view from their parents. In the case you have outlined, that world view includes the rather patronising idea that only adults can form worthwhile opinions or hold deep convictions.

Families sharing faith convictions (or even atheistic ones) is absolutely natural and actually, totally unavoidable, unless you were to propose state intervention (in which case, who on earth would decide what’s appropriate for children to be told about the world, relationships, and ethics? And on what basis would they make those decisions?).

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I think you are resorting to deflection too easily. What atheists do or do not do is orthogonal to the matter being discussed. One neither validates or excuses the other.



I assume then you do not teach your children about your world view but rather wait until they are adults and so old enough to form an opinion? I would be interested to know your answer .. but I suspect I know it already.

well you suspect wrong.

My daughter was born in 96 and my ex wife cheated on me and left in 98. I had a break down and was inactive as Witness until 7 years ago when I returned. My daughter is 25 and asks me questions. I do not preach to any of my none witness friends but do discuss it when they ask me questions which they do.

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Originally Posted by Chris

I’ll jump in here …

this is a really old, and very, very silly argument, which presupposes that to teach children a faith is to teach them a world view, whereas not to do so is to not teach them a world view.

The truth is that every parent imparts a world view to their children. Those who think they are not doing so, simply because they’re not bringing their children up in a religious faith, are being naive at best, and duplicitous at worst. Children always learn a world view from their parents. In the case you have outlined, that world view includes the rather patronising idea that only adults can form worthwhile opinions or hold deep convictions.

Families sharing faith convictions (or even atheistic ones) is absolutely natural and actually, totally unavoidable, unless you were to propose state intervention (in which case, who on earth would decide what’s appropriate for children to be told about the world, relationships, and ethics? And on what basis would they make those decisions?).

Yeah I agree with this totally.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

well you suspect wrong.

My daughter was born in 96 and my ex wife cheated on me and left in 98. I had a break down and was inactive as Witness until 7 years ago when I returned. My daughter is 25 and asks me questions. I do not preach to any of my none witness friends but do discuss it when they ask me questions which they do.

Good to know. I assume that this is the standard approach with the JW church then?

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Originally Posted by Chris

I’ll jump in here …

this is a really old, and very, very silly argument, which presupposes that to teach children a faith is to teach them a world view, whereas not to do so is to not teach them a world view.

The truth is that every parent imparts a world view to their children. Those who think they are not doing so, simply because they’re not bringing their children up in a religious faith, are being naive at best, and duplicitous at worst. Children always learn a world view from their parents. In the case you have outlined, that world view includes the rather patronising idea that only adults can form worthwhile opinions or hold deep convictions.

Families sharing faith convictions (or even atheistic ones) is absolutely natural and actually, totally unavoidable, unless you were to propose state intervention (in which case, who on earth would decide what’s appropriate for children to be told about the world, relationships, and ethics? And on what basis would they make those decisions?).

Sounds like a self-validating argument. You fail, however, to cover the case where parents attempt to not impose a specific world view (to the best of their ability) and encourage awareness and discussion of many. You also, deliberately, conflate an anti-faith atheist parent imprinting their view with a faith parent doing the same, they do not cancel each other out and does not validate the process.

I understand you have to validate your parenting choices because your faith demands it but that does not make it appropriate in a wider, societal context. The way I see it is that all individuals have the right to determine their own journey in life and not have one imprinted on them during their formative years. There is nothing patronising about the proposition that children can be conditioned during their early years. To imply that young children have the ability to process cogent argument and debate complex issues and so determine their own choices is a weak argument.

Of course, we have centuries of historical precedence to backup & reinforce your position but history does show us that change is possible. I also think that raising this point for discussion & debate does not merit your pejorative response.

[tweetiepooh]

A major difference between a humanistic/naturalist/atheistic world view and a "religious" one is that of consequences.



In the former following or not following doesn't really matter but the latter will usually have an eternal perspective. If you believe that following your world view will lead to an eternity of punishment or better that following it will lead to an eternity of blessing then you are going to do the best you can to bring up your children in a way that will encourage the choice of eternal blessing. But children as they grow will make their own minds up. My son is growing in his faith but my daughter has moved away (sad).