Will Scotland Leave the UK?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

I would assume those would come to light if they were voted into power, you cannot tell me that a party voted into governing a country has no proposals? Labour used to be the strongest party in Scotland and somehow lost its way, the Tories were never getting into power neither were the Liberals, I just do not see the benefit of an independent Scotland, imo we are far better off being part of the UK, only my opinion of course and that of many others in Scotand.

How do these parties propose to win elections without policies? The SNP offer a vision that gathers support. You don’t support them, and I suspect never would, which is fine. Your vote doesn’t win or lose elections in Scotland.

The unionists fight each other for the same ~50% of the vote. No one is trying to win the other 50%. Too wee, too small, doesn’t cut it.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by jfman

How do these parties propose to win elections without policies? The SNP offer a vision that gathers support. You don’t support them, and I suspect never would, which is fine. Your vote doesn’t win or lose elections in Scotland.

The unionists fight each other for the same ~50% of the vote. No one is trying to win the other 50%. Too wee, too small, doesn’t cut it.

Are you seriously saying that the other parties don't have any policies?? Why would they not have any? I would assume their policies would come to light when there is a general election, then and only then would people see what they are and would then decide who to vote for based on their policies.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

Are you seriously saying that the other parties don't have any policies?? Why would they not have any? I would assume their policies would come to light when there is a general election, then and only then would people see what they are and would then decide who to vote for based on their policies.

I’ve asked you to name some and here we are, an hour and a half later, and I’m none the wiser.

There’s one policy: “no”.

Take politics out of it and make it about any commercial offering and you want to expand your customer base. Do you try to make the best product to appeal to 100% of the market or do you fight another two companies for 50% market share by selling a like for like interchangeable product that the other 50% have rejected for over a decade. It’s completely irrational yet here we are. They’re devoid of ideas.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’ve asked you to name some and here we are, an hour and a half later, and I’m none the wiser.

There’s one policy: “no”.

Take politics out of it and make it about any commercial offering and you want to expand your customer base. Do you try to make the best product to appeal to 100% of the market or do you fight another two companies for 50% market share by selling a like for like interchangeable product that the other 50% have rejected for over a decade. It’s completely irrational yet here we are. They’re devoid of ideas.

I'm also into an hour and a half and you still haven't said anything about the quote from sturgeon in 2014 about her " once in a generation" speech for independence.
Tbh with you, I'm not really sure what the others may have up their sleeve as far as policies go, but id assume it would be to fix the education and health service as a priority, because its totally knackered in Scotland, SNP have mismanaged Scotland for thirteen years, and without handouts from the UK govt would be down the tubes years ago.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’ve asked you to name some and here we are, an hour and a half later, and I’m none the wiser.
.

I don't understand the issue, I haven't read them but they're easy to find.

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/policy/manifestos/

https://scottishlabour.org.uk/where-we-stand/manifesto/

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

I'm also into an hour and a half and you still haven't said anything about the quote from sturgeon in 2014 about her " once in a generation" speech for independence.
Tbh with you, I'm not really sure what the others may have up their sleeve as far as policies go, but id assume it would be to fix the education and health service as a priority, because its totally knackered in Scotland, SNP have mismanaged Scotland for thirteen years, and without handouts from the UK govt would be down the tubes years ago.

I don’t need to justify a point I didn’t make - so why would I waste my energy? “One in a generation” has no legal or constitutional basis. It was a politician on a stump speech. Circumstances change.

To quote Farage he didn’t think if Brexit lost 52-48 that would be the end of it. As long as people support the parties campaigning for these changes then they are entitled to keep the issues on the table. That’s democracy in action, and people get to reject independence as much as they please if they want.

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

I don't understand the issue, I haven't read them but they're easy to find.

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/policy/manifestos/

https://scottishlabour.org.uk/where-we-stand/manifesto/

The parties don’t talk about them or make the compelling case. If you turn on the TV, or go onto social media, it’s all the constitutional question from Scotland’s unionist parties.

The average voter doesn’t read through party manifestos. They become aware of policies from media coverage, sound bites and active campaigning on these issues.

If I don’t know any, and Mad Max can’t name any, and we’re both sitting on the current affairs forum. There’s a problem.

You’d never vote Labour but I bet you could name policies you disagreed with at the General Election. I may be doing you a disservice, because you are politically aware, but I doubt you had to read the manifesto to find out the bits you disagreed with.

[Mad Max]

I have taken this from the labour manifesto as kindly posted by Pierre, isn't this a policy?
I know what you are saying, jfman, about it not being put across to the general public via mainstream media etc, but it's definitely a policy.

Our manifesto is the most radical, hopeful, people-focused, fully-costed plan in modern times. It has a £100billion investment plan for Scotland, a plan that will be transformational for our communities.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

You’d never vote Labour but I bet you could name policies you disagreed with at the General Election. I may be doing you a disservice, because you are politically aware, but I doubt you had to read the manifesto to find out the bits you disagreed with.

Well I voted for Blair 1st & 2nd time around, but many would say that wasn't voting Labour.

You get the policies thrust at you when election time comes around, as the parties are selling themselves. Hence the policy a day from the Labour at the last election effectively lost them the vote as the policy a day free give away was unbelievable to the sensible electorate.

To be fair I wouldn't expect the Holyrood elections to be big news in Yorkshire, and I am also uninterested in the nuts and bolts of Scottish politics, as I don't live there.

I would expect Mad Max and other residents in Scotland such a Chris to be much more versed in these matters.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

“Get on with the day job” patter is fantastic from unionists.

I can’t remember the last time Scottish Labour or Conservatives made a policy proposal. I frequently forget the Lib Dems exist.

Trade isn’t a good reason to not be self-governing. Seph will back me up here.

You’ve also got a curious way of phrasing that the Covid situation allows the SNP to demonstrate competence against the backdrop of UK Government incompetence.

I wish I could back you up here, jfman. But the double negatives got me!

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

I have taken this from the labour manifesto as kindly posted by Pierre, isn't this a policy?
I know what you are saying, jfman, about it not being put across to the general public via mainstream media etc, but it's definitely a policy.

Our manifesto is the most radical, hopeful, people-focused, fully-costed plan in modern times. It has a £100billion investment plan for Scotland, a plan that will be transformational for our communities.

Sounds like a reasonably compelling policy - didn’t hear it mentioned once in 2017. Heard monotone Richard Leonard say we are tired about talking about independence plenty of times. Yes Richard, we are tired of hearing you talk about independence, move on. Trying to out-Tory the Tories on the union is (and remains) a waste of time.

The independence movement isn’t one big homogenous voting group, and a significant proportion are less than 10 years in the ‘movement’. There’s also (not many but they’re out there) no voters who just think the SNP provide the best government. But if nobody is selling them an alternate vision of Scotland then they will eventually stick.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

away and bile yer heid.

sorry folks, but that's given me my best chuckle of the day . . . so far

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

The parties don’t talk about them or make the compelling case. If you turn on the TV, or go onto social media, it’s all the constitutional question from Scotland’s unionist parties.

The average voter doesn’t read through party manifestos. They become aware of policies from media coverage, sound bites and active campaigning on these issues.

If I don’t know any, and Mad Max can’t name any, and we’re both sitting on the current affairs forum. There’s a problem.

You’d never vote Labour but I bet you could name policies you disagreed with at the General Election. I may be doing you a disservice, because you are politically aware, but I doubt you had to read the manifesto to find out the bits you disagreed with.

You said they had no policies for Scotland. Your attention has been drawn to their policies. You make it up as you go along, and you make no attempt to Google it before telling others they are wrong.

Of course all the mainstream political parties have policies. Why would you think otherwise?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You said they had no policies for Scotland. Your attention has been drawn to their policies. You make it up as you go along, and you make no attempt to Google it before telling others they are wrong.

Of course all the mainstream political parties have policies. Why would you think otherwise?

Are you following me round the forum trying to land a single solitary jab?

If it is so bad that you are now holding up the Scottish Labour manifesto from 2017 that magics out of thin air £100bn for Scotland then that’s surely a sign of desperation.

I’m sure nobody took me literally, and I’ll ask what the point of a political party is if nobody can names it’s flagship policies? Or a campaign that fails to sufficiently increase awareness off said policies among your target voter base?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Are you following me round the forum trying to land a single solitary jab?

If it is so bad that you are now holding up the Scottish Labour manifesto from 2017 that magics out of thin air £100bn for Scotland then that’s surely a sign of desperation.

I’m sure nobody took me literally, and I’ll ask what the point of a political party is if nobody can names it’s flagship policies? Or a campaign that fails to sufficiently increase awareness off said policies among your target voter base?

I'd quit while you're behind, if I were you, mate.

---------- Post added at 18:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Yes.

Higher tax (which actually most people don’t pay) isn’t a bad thing if the state is providing better value (or perceived better value) to citizens. Free personal care for the elderly, no tuition fees, etc.

I’m wondering why they get you so angry if they’re so incompetent surely they will lose in 2021?

I see you've picked a vote winner with that one! Surely, you don't really believe that hard pressed families would welcome a tax rise!

This is Scotland we are talking about.

[jfman]

If I’m aware of anything Old Boy it’s to know not to take advice from you on when to quit while behind. You’ve been flogging the same dead horse since 2014 in the TV section.

More tax is relative Old Boy. Privatised public services do not come “free”. A student saving 36 grand in tuition fees might think paying slightly more tax is better than leaving uni saddled with a huge debt. Similarly the Bank of Mum and Dad probably don’t fancy picking up the tab either.