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Old 20-01-2022, 19:59   #1456
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderplant View Post
In the interests of completeness, here are the deaths purely from COVID. About 17,000 in England & Wales.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/trans...ingcauses?s=09
So, not the 150K that the doomsayers were promoting.
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Old 20-01-2022, 20:03   #1457
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
The Covid report will be written this year. Another inaccurate calculation on your part.....

---------- Post added at 18:09 ---------- Previous post was at 18:08 ----------



If people have died because they couldn't get an operation due to attention of hospitals being diverted elsewhere, it is not a Covid death. Excess deaths include many deaths which are not due to Covid, so again, this is at best an indicator.

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:09 ----------



Yes, the conspiracy theorists choose to ignore the fact that the review was due to take place anyway. Beware Hugh's biassed fact checker service!
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
I am not arguing that ‘excess deaths’ doesn’t indicate a measure of the crisis, of course it does.

But it does not measure deaths that are directly connected to Covid infection.That was my point.

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:13 ----------



Come on, Andrew, you are the one interpreting information to suit your argument.

Comparison of Covid deaths between countries when every country includes different criteria for producing the statistics is clearly inaccurate. And these are not small inaccuracies. If one country only records Hospital Covid deaths and another records all deaths including deaths in the community and in care homes, that’s a pretty big difference.

Similarly, if excess deaths includes people who are not having their health conditions monitored and those whose operations have been put back, this does reflect the scale of the problem, but what that figure is not showing is the number of Covid deaths.

I would have thought that all the pedants we encounter on this forum would recognise that immediately. But not when it doesn’t suit your argument, it seems.
Nice try changing your proposition from "excess deaths due to COVID” to "excess deaths due to COVID infection"…

If people died due to not being able to be treated because the hospitals are full of COVID patients, they are excess deaths due to COVID.
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Old 20-01-2022, 22:59   #1458
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Nice try changing your proposition from "excess deaths due to COVID” to "excess deaths due to COVID infection"…

If people died due to not being able to be treated because the hospitals are full of COVID patients, they are excess deaths due to COVID.
I haven’t tried to change anything. You know very well I was talking about Covid infections.

---------- Post added at 22:59 ---------- Previous post was at 22:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderplant View Post
In the interests of completeness, here are the deaths purely from COVID. About 17,000 in England & Wales.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/trans...ingcauses?s=09
Thank you, spiderplant.
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Old 21-01-2022, 05:05   #1459
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Re: Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
A phrase involving straws and grasping springs to mind.
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Old 21-01-2022, 07:53   #1460
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Re: Coronavirus

James Brian, is a pathetic, woke idiot, to be simply ignored.
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Old 21-01-2022, 09:54   #1461
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiderplant View Post
In the interests of completeness, here are the deaths purely from COVID. About 17,000 in England & Wales.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/trans...ingcauses?s=09
That links to a little goldmine of data (here) In the notes of the spreadsheet, it does note that the deaths recorded are deaths due to COVID, not deaths with COVID. COVID needs to be specifically noted on the death certificate as a cause of death and there is a very formal definition of this (WHO guidelines) There can of course be multiple causes of death.

Looking at the proportion of deaths with pre-existing conditions, before vaccines, it was 12.8% and in Q3 2021, it was 17.4% which surprised me as I would have guessed that COVID would be more likely to pick off the already sick. It would be interesting to see the rates of those without pre-existing conditions who were not vaccinated, those who say they are fit and healthy and therefore don't need a vaccine.

Personally, I am quite uncomfortable with people saying COVID is only killing people with underlying conditions and that's OK. It either labels those with those conditions as 'weak' or somehow deserving or irrelevant. Many of the underlying conditions are not a death sentence in themselves and are quite manageable. In the top 20 pre-existing conditions are diabetes, hypertension, cardiac arrythmias, musculoskeletal disorders and obesity. All of these can be treated or managed - those people weren't necessarily going to die anyway
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Old 21-01-2022, 14:36   #1462
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Re: Coronavirus

The Covid statistical dashboard is at last conceded to be unreliable.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...-increasingly/

[EXTRACTS]

Covid data updates on the Government’s online dashboard are becoming increasingly unreliable, experts have warned, as it emerged up to 70 per cent of coronavirus patients in hospital were primarily being treated for other problems.

Deaths are reported as Covid on the dashboard if they occur within 28 days of a positive test. But so many people are now being diagnosed with omicron that a large proportion of natural deaths are now also ending up in the figures.
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Old 21-01-2022, 15:25   #1463
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Re: Coronavirus

So you are saying that if people have COVID, it shouldn't be recorded if they have something else as well?

Unfortunately, we can't see who these "experts" are who are saying this, as it's behind a paywall (and btw, you missed out the important word "current" from proposition, which is what the "experts" are saying - I am sure this was purely accidental, and you weren't deliberately trying to cast doubt on all previous statistics...

And one of the experts states
Quote:
He also warned the data was becoming 'increasingly unreliable', saying many people who get a positive lateral flow test are now failing to register it with the authorities.
So it's unreliable because of under-reporting...

Update - here's a non-paywall link

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...a-updates.html
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Last edited by Hugh; 21-01-2022 at 15:31.
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Old 21-01-2022, 20:14   #1464
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
So you are saying that if people have COVID, it shouldn't be recorded if they have something else as well?
No, I’m not saying that. I am saying that the way these statistics are being used is giving a completely wrong impression. A substantial number of people testing positive for Covid may be dying, but not dying because of it.

You know very well that’s what I’m saying, Hugh, please stop being difficult.
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Old 21-01-2022, 21:12   #1465
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Re: Coronavirus

I can’t read your mind, OB, I can only see what you post.

Quote:
The Covid statistical dashboard is at last conceded to be unreliable.
I read that as you believed the dashboard had always been unreliable, whereas the article stated it was due to Omicron that it was deemed not suitable.

You also (again, probably not deliberately) ignored the point about under-reporting…
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Old 21-01-2022, 23:58   #1466
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Re: Coronavirus

A colleague lost her father the death certificate stated covid as the cause of death making no mention of the fact he was in a hospice with terminal mesotheleoma (probably spelt that wrong). I've also heard from numerous doctors and nurses that covid has become an easy way to deal with more complicated causes of death. We cannot carry on as we are forever and a day we have to get back to normality and stop living in fear of a hugely hyped illness.
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Old 25-01-2022, 14:24   #1467
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Re: Coronavirus

Good thread on that 17k Coronavirus death thread.
Quote:
I've seen a few people recently shouting about how new ONS data shows that the "true" death toll from COVID in England & Wales is only 17,371, rather than the ONS figure of 157,816.

This is obviously nonsense, but evidently still needs debunking, so here goes...
https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/st...70730867765251
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Old 25-01-2022, 14:30   #1468
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Re: Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Good thread on that 17k Coronavirus death thread.

https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/st...70730867765251

A valid argument which will no doubt be called out simply due to the platform.
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Old 25-01-2022, 15:52   #1469
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Re: Coronavirus

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Good thread on that 17k Coronavirus death thread.

https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/st...70730867765251
The first half of his comments, grounded in science, statistics, and good old all round evidence, is fantastic. The second half, in which he indulges in the tired old “if you say … then what you’re really saying” fallacy, was a lot of tiresome self righteous nonsense. Not being well read, not understanding how to use evidence and even making pronouncements beyond one’s expertise do not make someone “morally repugnant”.
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Old 25-01-2022, 15:54   #1470
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Re: Coronavirus

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Good thread on that 17k Coronavirus death thread.

https://twitter.com/VictimOfMaths/st...70730867765251
I don't think anyone is seriously making the argument that only 17K people have died because of COVID.

of the other 140K it's how many were going to die anyway? and then how many may have lived with a terminal illness for several more years but had their life shortened.

The whole 17K thing is a red herring of the reddest type.

Just because you had a co-morbidity doesn't mean you wouldn't have lived a long and happy life without catching COVID.

But what it does show you is that COVID is/was a culling virus that takes out the weak and the vulnerable. Young, fit and healthy are unlikely to die from it.

As well as vaccines the NHS/ Govt should also be pushing the narrative that getting fit and healthy will also reduce your chances of dying from it............unless that upsets {tinfoil} their big pharma paymasters {tinfoil}
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