Brexit (Old)

[jfman]

I’m not disagreeing with you, it does have it’s flaws. All of your concerns would equally apply to “no deal”.

On the tightrope it doesn’t really please anyone entirely.

Originally Posted by ianch99

I can see the point you make but there are two problems with your logic:

1. this validates the decades of right wing media anti-EU propaganda and xenophobia that underwrote the 2016 result.
2. this deal is forcing a future on a generation that overwhelmingly does not want it. Moreover, now the actual deal is known, they are denied a voice in approving (or denying) it.

Just like I was, and millions of others back in the 70s. That’s life. You cannot keep having the same Referendum, just because people are not old enough to vote during it.

You go on about the younger generation not wanting this, many young people I know want to leave the EU.

What propaganda are you talking about?

I saw no propaganda to realise how damaging the EU has been to the UK. I hate the EU and all it stands for and make my own judgements on my own volition.

And just how many people were duped to vote Remain during the lies the Remain camp told and dire tactics?

The argument for another referendum is that people now know more, this is a fallacy.

Several key arguments about the need to Remain are that we would lose all EU Grants. This is actually our money they are giving back but telling us what to spend it on, so we are not losing a thing by leaving. We are net contributors. It is a con job membership fee for measly benefits, mainly being able to trade but that is achievable outside the EU. Japan manages it, Australia does.

It is not Xenophobic or racist to be concerned with the amount of migration that has occurred over the last few decades in Europe.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Mick

You go on about the younger generation not wanting this, many young people I know want to leave the EU.

The small number of young people you may know do not form a representative sample I am afraid.

Originally Posted by Mick

What propaganda are you talking about?

Here's a few:



Some more:

Originally Posted by Mick

The argument for another referendum is that people now know more, this is a fallacy.

Not a mistaken belief, just a clear and self-evident proposition. The facts we have now have superseded the claims made in 2016.

Originally Posted by Mick

It is not Xenophobic or racist to be concerned with the amount of migration that has occurred over the last few decades in Europe.

You are quite correct. However, when the right wing media are exaggerating the impact of migration plus blaming migrants for problems not of their making then this is xenophobic.

Our Governments (past & current) have had the means to control & limit EU migration for years and have ignored these powers.

They also have chosen not to intervene in the (free) market to protect the areas of the country that were disproportionately impacted by the change in our manufacturing base.

Originally Posted by ianch99

The small number of young people you may know do not form a representative sample I am afraid.

What Representative sample are you working with to decide the younger generation don’t want to leave, how do you know?

Here's a few:



Some more:

Great, now what about the lies and tactics, falsehoods described by the Remain establishment, that includes campaigns and the pro-EU media???

Not a mistaken belief, just a clear and self-evident proposition. The facts we have now have superseded the claims made in 2016.

And what makes you think a second referendum won’t be the same misinformation, scare stories and general lies by both sides?

Another referendum would be just as divisive and just prolong business uncertainty. The country has already decided, I know it’s not the result you desired or recognise but you would have miraculously recognised a Remain result, despite all the lies and falsehoods told by their camp.

BREAKING: JUST IN: German Foreign Minister Maas says if May's Brexit deal is rejected by parliament today there could be new talks with the EU.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m bizarrely coming round to Theresa May’s deal. It’s not really Brexit, keeps us economically tied to the EU and for the xenophobes it ends freedom of movement.

While nobody thinks it’s great it gives everyone something. Probably just enough to end Brexit debates going forward and put a line under it. Remaining, extensions or leaving with no deal will keep the issue rumbling on for years.

Being “stuck in the backstop” keeps us in the customs union without paying into the EU which bizarrely is the best of both worlds if we accept that favourable the trade deals are unlikely.

That Mr Gove has been ear worming you.

TBH, I'm not against May's deal. It's a compromise deal, as all deals are.

It's a start and moves us on.

We are still a sovereign nation, if something happens further along by the EU that is abhorrent to us, we can still cut ties if we need to.

I think the sticking point for many is the money, with no guarantee of what the future relationship will be.

You have to use the word you don't like, and take a leap of faith.

Originally Posted by Mick

BREAKING: JUST IN: German Foreign Minister Maas says if May's Brexit deal is rejected by parliament today there could be new talks with the EU.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8728521.html

Brexit negotiations between the UK and EU could be re-opened if MPs reject the deal negotiated by Theresa May this evening, Germany’s foreign minister has said.

Heiko Maas told reporters at the European Parliament: “The agreement stands, as it is. I doubt very much that the agreement can be fundamentally reopened. If there were a better solution, it would already have been put forward.”

He expressed hope that the withdrawal agreement could still pass, but added: “If it goes wrong tonight, there could be further talks.”

[Carth]

The world turns, things are ever changing, what was good to eat last week can now apparently kill you this week, etc etc.

I voted no back in the 70's and had to follow everyone else into the land of milk and honey (and butter mountains, wine lakes) because that's how things are done.

The 'EU' I voted against back then is totally different to the 'EU' I voted against this time, and I wonder if people knew back then what they know now, would they have voted differently?

The world turns, things change, and the time of change is here again

Originally Posted by Carth

The world turns, things are ever changing, what was good to eat last week can now apparently kill you this week, etc etc.

I voted no back in the 70's and had to follow everyone else into the land of milk and honey (and butter mountains, wine lakes) because that's how things are done.

The 'EU' I voted against back then is totally different to the 'EU' I voted against this time, and I wonder if people knew back then what they know now, would they have voted differently?

The world turns, things change, and the time of change is here again

I voted against originally. However I voted to stay this time mainly because my children wanted to stay.

[1andrew1]

Does anybody think Theresa May will resign if she loses the vote this evening?

[denphone]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Does anybody think Theresa May will resign if she loses the vote this evening?

If you offer good odds you might have some takers on that.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Does anybody think Theresa May will resign if she loses the vote this evening?

Nah

[Dave42]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Does anybody think Theresa May will resign if she loses the vote this evening?

no she wont

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Does anybody think Theresa May will resign if she loses the vote this evening?

No she's not a quitter.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Does anybody think Theresa May will resign if she loses the vote this evening?

Only way she' ll go if her cabinet colleagues stick the knife in ( wouldn't turn her back on Oily snake Gove if I was her).

I predict a 6 month delay, more negotiations with the EU, which won't really be negotiations as they won't change the agreement. Another vote which she'll lose again. Then another referendum which will overwhelming choose remain. She'll still try and stay though as she is a Remainer, and the alternatives are too terrible and talentless to contemplate.

Meanwhile every other bit of Govt. goes on hold, and the economy tanks, and the country becomes more divided than ever. All an utter unneeded, self inflicted waste of time. Well done Brexiteers !