Coronavirus (OLD)

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Just read an interesting article in the FT about how Germany handled and is handling the outbreak - https://t.co/Ho1Q11Ndm3?amp=1 (not paywalled)

There are many aspects where there can't be a comparison between the UK and Germany (massively devolved health management and a mixed state and private healthcare system) but it's interesting nevertheless. It seems very local empowerment backed up by a strong, popular federal leadership was the key to Germany's success

Yes, that's a very good article and interesting to see they had a near-hidden track and trace infrastructure in place that could be called upon. The empowerment of the GPs' surgeries to set up testing was inspiring.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

There was an interesting programme on Channel 4 last night:

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/...t-get-it-wrong

Dispatches investigated whether the Government got things right in the way that they have handled the virus thus far.

And the one about South Korea, highlighted the fact that the biggest problem is SOCIETY. In South Korea, their SOCIETY had accepted a policy of "Safety above Privacy". Limited details(age, occupation, location) of infected people were published on a website. They were ALL wearing face masks or coverings of one sort or another. Very few people in this country have done that.

The main sources of importation of the virus for South Korea, was China, whereas in the UK it has spread from China AND other countries such as Italy and Austria. More points of introduction, to more parts of the country.

The measures adopted in South Korea are CONSTANTLY complained about in the UK, especially by the MEDIA.

---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Yes, that's a very good article and interesting to see they had a near-hidden track and trace infrastructure in place that could be called upon. The empowerment of the GPs' surgeries to set up testing was inspiring.

Near hidden, as in near non-existent and with very limited powers, eg (use of phone data)

Underfunded and understaffed, they long led something of a shadow existence. Few people had much of an idea what they were there for, apart from measuring drinking water quality and tackling measles outbreaks.

Track and trace can only work where there is a small number of cases.

One doctor in Bologna, who asked not to be named, said he had spent a 12-hour day tracing people who had been in contact with just one positive patient, to ensure those who next need testing are found. “You can do that if the number of cases remains two to three,” the doctor said. “But if they grow, something has to give. The system will implode if we continue to test everyone actively and then have to do all this.”

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

All they have done is go back to work.

This idiot joined a mob of thousands ignoring the pandemic and the law regarding it, how many people will now die as a result of this illegal gathering and his publicity stunt.

Funny that isn't it, just as a report states that BAME people are more likely to be impacted by COVID 19, BAME and others all congregate to protest that black lives matter, thereby putting more of those lives that matter at risk.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Yes, that's a very good article and interesting to see they had a near-hidden track and trace infrastructure in place that could be called upon. The empowerment of the GPs' surgeries to set up testing was inspiring.

Yeah, the Gesundheitsämter setup seemed to work well. We keep hearing noises regarding local lockdowns in the UK and this is perhaps a situation where local subdivisions of PHE would come in handy here too, devolving public health to NHS trust level as an example..

That said, Germany essentially has 16 'countries' (Länder) under their federal system while we already have 4. Would a more granular system work...

[RichardCoulter]

It was said on TV yesterday that there is no option to check if the Track & Trace caller is authentic and not a scammer. Eg if you receive a phone call asking for personal details, you cannot call them back to verify the call.

A scammers field day, so I won't be doing it, especially since I have been affected by the Virgin Media data breach. I receive enough calls that my internet is going off in 4 hours as it is!

[heero_yuy]

R4 "You and Yours" featured this yesterday and already people have been scammed out of money and personal data.

Scammers spoof the telephone number to look like the track and trace number that the government publicised. Yawning security failure.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Yeah, the Gesundheitsämter setup seemed to work well. We keep hearing noises regarding local lockdowns in the UK and this is perhaps a situation where local subdivisions of PHE would come in handy here too, devolving public health to NHS trust level as an example..

That said, Germany essentially has 16 'countries' (Länder) under their federal system while we already have 4. Would a more granular system work...

I think in Greater Manchester the agreement there is to bring health under the jurisdiction of the Mayor, but I'm not sure how the various bodies fit together. I can certainly see that councils would be well placed for track and trace. https://www.greatermanchester-ca.gov...e-for-the-nhs/

[Sephiroth]

I'm very much in favour of decentralised T&T operation and power for local decisions against a common set of rules. The key, of course, is an automated workflow that ensures local data contributes to the national picture because transport decisions may need to be taken centrally. Needs quite a bit of thought.


---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:22 ----------

You'd have thought that the results of Alok Sharma's CV test would have been done in a small matter of hours given the potential to cripple the Guvmin. At this time of writing - nothing known to the public. [Edit in Red]

Mr. K must be on the edge of his seat awaiting a positive result.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I'm very much in favour of decentralised T&T operation and power for local decisions against a common set of rules. The key, of course, is an automated workflow that ensures local data contributes to the national picture because transport decisions may need to be taken centrally. Needs quite a bit of thought.
[COLOR="Silver"]

The other consideration would be the handoff between regions. It wouldn't be simple to get right...

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I'm very much in favour of decentralised T&T operation and power for local decisions against a common set of rules. The key, of course, is an automated workflow that ensures local data contributes to the national picture because transport decisions may need to be taken centrally. Needs quite a bit of thought.


---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:22 ----------

You'd have thought that the results of Alok Sharma's CV test would have been done in a small matter of hours given the potential to cripple the Guvmin. At this time of wringing - nothing known to the public.

Mr. K must be on the edge of his seat awaiting a positive result.

Maybe he can't read the results and has had to go somewhere for an eyetest?
I suspect Mr K is still reading his complimentary Telegraph.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

R4 "You and Yours" featured this yesterday and already people have been scammed out of money and personal data.

Scammers spoof the telephone number to look like the track and trace number that the government publicised. Yawning security failure.

Strange that other countries don't seem to have a problem with this. Or is it a matter of them not have a media that inform potential scammers of the potential.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Strange that other countries don't seem to have a problem with this. Or is it a matter of them not have a media that inform potential scammers of the potential.

I suspect they have Governments somewhat more competent at track and trace than ours.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I suspect they have Governments somewhat more competent at track and trace than ours.

Competence or otherwise ISN'T the issue. Why haven't Germany and South Korea long been plagued with scammers? Or is it simply their media hasn't given people any ideas of carrying out scams in the first place. Just because Germany had a extremely limited form of tracing, doesn't mean it had any impact. Testing water quality and measles outbreaks are not really comparable. Even Italy had a form of tracing, and look what happened there.
Contact tracing WAS taking place in the UK, but the number of cases rose so rapidly it then had to be abandoned. As the quote from the Doctor in Italy said.

One doctor in Bologna, who asked not to be named, said he had spent a 12-hour day tracing people who had been in contact with just one positive patient, to ensure those who next need testing are found. “You can do that if the number of cases remains two to three,” the doctor said. “But if they grow, something has to give. The system will implode if we continue to test everyone actively and then have to do all this.”

South Korea

This includes enforcing a law that grants the government wide authority to access data: CCTV footage, GPS tracking data from phones and cars, credit card transactions, immigration entry information, and other personal details of people confirmed to have an infectious disease. The authorities can then make some of this public, so anyone who may have been exposed can get themselves - or their friends and family members - tested.

Good luck with trying that over here. The media would have a giant hissy fit, as always.

“Patient 31,” as she became known, was a member of a secretive church which Deputy Minister for Health and Welfare Kim Gang-lip said has since linked to 61% of cases. Infections spread beyond the congregation after the funeral of a relative of the church’s founder was held at a nearby hospital, and there were several other smaller clusters around the country. Once the church cluster was identified, South Korea opened around 50 drive-through testing facilities around the country.

Tracing within such a relatively enclosed group is a lot easier, than having to trace people at a parties or in pubs. If instead "Patient 31" had been a bit of a "party animal", then it's almost certain the spread would have been a lot wider. Just as one of their outbreaks was created by a "party animal" going to different clubs.

More than 100 cases have been linked to nightlife venues in the South Korean capital, and on Saturday, Seoul ordered all clubs and bars to temporarily close.
The cluster has caused alarm in South Korea, which was among the first countries outside of China to deal with a large-scale coronavirus outbreak. In recent weeks, however, authorities had begun loosening restrictions as case numbers fell.
...
Although all three venues linked to the cluster asked for customers' full names and phone numbers on arrival, the city has been unable to contact almost 2,000 club-goers -- meaning they either avoided the calls or gave a false number, Seoul's mayor Park Won-soon said Monday.
The city has had to employ other measures to track them. Using phone signal tower records, the city found that 10,905 people were in the vicinity of the clubs in the nightlife suburb of Itaewon between April 24 and May 6. Authorities have texted them all, saying they should get tested. Officials have also used credit cards to track almost 500 people, who have been asked to get tested and self-quarantine.

Tracing only works when you are dealing with people that accept it.



One massive WORLD-WIDE error has been the focus on coughing and sneezing as a method of transmission. Talking or merely breathing have been established as large factors. There isn't a sort of 2m range of fug like with after-shave or perfume, surrounding people. It is directional. You could be standing right beside somebody, but as long as you are breathing in a direction away from everybody, then theoretically it should be ok. On the other hand, even 2m metres away face to face, could be a problem.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Almost as good as someone insisting all MPs return to Parliament, to hear a minister who potentially has the virus in an enclosed place, then distributing the MPs round the country again. Top government !

Only that MP has tested NEGATIVE for Covid-19.

https://news.sky.com/story/alok-shar...virus-12000657

BREAKING: Alok Sharma tests negative for Covid-19.

Mr K's narrative destroyed, as per the norm.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

Only that MP has tested NEGATIVE for Covid-19.

https://news.sky.com/story/alok-shar...virus-12000657

BREAKING: Alok Sharma tests negative for Covid-19.

Mr K's narrative destroyed, as per the norm.

Well that's good news But it's only by luck, could easily be very different. Politicians and their special 'advisors' need to be role models in following the rules/good working practices. Otherwise the rest of us, and other employers won't take it seriously.