Brexit (Old)

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

[/B]
Yes they will. Us.

Yes probably; but if you voted for Brexit you can't avoid some of the responsibility.

They'll be a long list of those to point the finger at after the Brexit fall out. Those really responsible will of course take none of the blame. When the fairyland Brexit they dreamed of isn't delivered, it'll be May, Corbyn, the EU, immigrants, etc etc fault.....

[Carth]

All my responsibilities ended after casting my vote.

I don't recall the voting paper including the phrase "you may vote either Remain or Leave, but please be aware you will need to submit a written document outlining your proposals for a successful implementation of your choice"

Government missed a great chance to pass the buck there didn't they

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Not any better, But we can remove our poor performing politicians and we can decide who replaces them.

Most of the UK cannot. With the undemocratic FPTP system there are too many safe seats, where the only way you get a change of MP is when they resign, are deselected or switch sides.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Yes probably; but if you voted for Brexit you can't avoid some of the responsibility.

My first post in a while, too busy doing a house move.

It is NOT their fault on how, why they voted and it will never be.

The problem here is the doom mongering attitude you persistently and tediously, continue to have.

When the millions of people who voted for Labour in 1997 and they came to power for 13 years, is it those voters fault that Labour bankrupted the country, took us to an illegal Iraq war, sold gold at rock bottom prices... ???

As much as I despised what Labour did to this country in the 13 years in power, I do not blame a single voter who decided to vote for them. I accepted their right to a democratic choice.

This blame game really is pathetic and you consistently always play the blame game.

NOONE knows what the UK will be like post Brexit, but there will always be the naysayers and doom mongers who thinks we should stay in a corrupted and failing EU.

It is failing because other countries will be deciding to leave as well. The EU was the biggest con job sold to billions in Europe and I am absolutely ecstatic that the majority of people in the UK stood up to them and finally we will be free of the bullshit that exists in this pathetic and corrupted Union.

Even as we speak, today in Brussels, there is now other EU members, pleading and begging the UK to hold a second referendum, I say piss off and mind your own business. As much as the PM annoys me at times - she has told them all straight within the last 24 hours, it's either a deal or no deal, there will be NO second referendum or "losers vote" as it is being branded about. Good.

Democracy must be maintained, the 2016 EU Referendum was meant to be a once in a lifetime vote, yet two years later, the hardcore Remainers want another vote, thus, trying to wreck the fundamental principles of a true Democracy, by having frequent votes, to get the desired result.

---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 ----------

Originally Posted by Carth

All my responsibilities ended after casting my vote.

I don't recall the voting paper including the phrase "you may vote either Remain or Leave, but please be aware you will need to submit a written document outlining your proposals for a successful implementation of your choice"

Best post ever in this thread and totally spot on. Anyone who says otherwise is talking utter bollocks!!!

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Angua

Most of the UK cannot. With the undemocratic FPTP system there are too many safe seats, where the only way you get a change of MP is when they resign, are deselected or switch sides.

All of the UK can.

Just because there are safe seats where people would vote for a parrot if it wore a Blue or Red rosette is the fault of the electorate, not the system.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Pierre

All of the UK can.

Just because there are safe seats where people would vote for a parrot if it wore a Blue or Red rosette is the fault of the electorate, not the system.

The system creates the safe seats. The fact the majority do not even think about how they vote, just the same old choice election after election, is it any wonder people are turned off politics. NI Vote using a form of PR, so they at least have a genuine vote.

Last election 57% of Cornwall did not vote Tory, but ended up with 100% Tory MPs.
It took fewer votes to elect one SNP MP than to elect a DUP MP.

68.4% of votes cast in 2017 had no impact on the outcome.

That is why the system is broken.

[Bircho]

So there will be no deal unless the Northern Ireland border issue is sorted so the EU have stated this afternoon.

When there was a referendum after the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland, every single member of the electorate was sent the full text of the Agreement and they were asked to vote in favour of it or against it. There was a 80% turnout and 71% voted in favour.

Similarly, the GFA required the Republic to go through a significant constitutional change. The full text of the change was provided to the citizens of Ireland and on a 56% turnout, 94% voted in favour.

We are now looking to take away the GFA to which the vast majority of both sides of the border voted to keep open borders.

Given this was true democracy where voters were given exactly what they were voting for, should the people of both countries be given another vote?

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Bircho

So there will be no deal unless the Northern Ireland border issue is sorted so the EU have stated this afternoon.

When there was a referendum after the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland, every single member of the electorate was sent the full text of the Agreement and they were asked to vote in favour of it or against it. There was a 80% turnout and 71% voted in favour.

Similarly, the GFA required the Republic to go through a significant constitutional change. The full text of the change was provided to the citizens of Ireland and on a 56% turnout, 71% voted in favour.

We are now looking to take away the GFA to which the vast majority of both sides of the border voted to keep open borders.

Given this was true democracy where voters were given exactly what they were voting for, should the people of both countries be given another vote?

Exactly. I really do not think the majority of England when voting leave had a thought in their heads for the impact on Irish border and the GFA.

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by Angua

Exactly. I really do not think the majority of England when voting leave had a thought in their heads for the impact on Irish border and the GFA.

I edited my original post. There was a typo for the Republic vote - it was 94% in favour not 71% (that was for the vote in favour in the North).

---------- Post added at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Angua

Exactly. I really do not think the majority of England when voting leave had a thought in their heads for the impact on Irish border and the GFA.

Probably worth adding that when there was the Scottish Independence Vote, a white paper was produced showing the implications to Scotland for both a pro and against independence. It ran to 560 pages - the electorate had the opportunity to have a detailed look at what they were voted for to allow them to make a balanced decision.

I ask the question, if there was a no deal, other than some very recent papers from the Government - of which there are still several to be produced - have the UK electorate really been provided with the detail as to what a no deal looks like so that they can make a real choice?

[denphone]

Chequers goes pop...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/0...g-catastrophe/

[Dave42]

Originally Posted by denphone

Chequers goes pop...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/0...g-catastrophe/

it was always going to Den no surprise there cliff edge getting nearer everyday

[heero_yuy]

It's only a cliff edge for the "wait and see'ers". Those who have been proactive in preparing for the extension of the trade conditions that they already have to contend with with the rest of the world will have no major issues.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by denphone

Chequers goes pop...

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/0...g-catastrophe/

Chequers wasn't great anyway.

But all can now see that it's the intransigence of the EU that means a no deal is now the likely outcome and to be fair, that's their prerogative.

They are under no obligation to offer us anything, and we should have - well we did - have expected it when they sent Cameron off with a flea in his ear.

The only reason to come to an agreement of some sort would be to not damage their own interests with trade and other relationships they have with us, but they are making it clear that they don't care about that......at the moment, very hardball but that wont last.

It will be interesting to see what happens as the year draws to a close. There will be much to be done in Q1 2019.

Both sides will feel the pressure and more than ever we need the Govt to hold their nerve. Because as No Deal looms some in the EU will start to sweat a bit, and that's when deals will be done.

[Sephiroth]

How can any of the Remainers in this thread want to be bound into the EU? They have behaved abominably in the "negotiations". Many of us foresaw this two years ago and we should have played hardball then. This would have given us two years to properly plan for no deal.

The Irish PM is as perfidious as they come. He should rot in hell and I hope he breaks into an itchy sweat when the EU descends on him forcing a hard border to bew erected from his side.

Corbyn is a pos who couldn't care a jot for the British people and is behaving irresponsibly in Parliament.

May is a disappointment who has failed to carry the people with her because she ididn't devise the correct negotiation strategy on day 1.

Germany - well do the Remainers want to be governed by German decisions?

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Chequers wasn't great anyway.

But all can now see that it's the intransigence of the EU that means a no deal is now the likely outcome and to be fair, that's their prerogative.

They are under no obligation to offer us anything, and we should have - well we did - have expected it when they sent Cameron off with a flea in his ear.

The only reason to come to an agreement of some sort would be to not damage their own interests with trade and other relationships they have with us, but they are making it clear that they don't care about that......at the moment, very hardball but that wont last.

It will be interesting to see what happens as the year draws to a close. There will be much to be done in Q1 2019.

Both sides will feel the pressure and more than ever we need the Govt to hold their nerve. Because as No Deal looms some in the EU will start to sweat a bit, and that's when deals will be done.

A pretty good analysis as yes Chequers was pretty much doomed from the start as at the moment there is plenty of sabre rattling and that will continue for a while but as the midnight oil starts to run out l can certainly see some type of deal being done.

---------- Post added at 19:21 ---------- Previous post was at 19:15 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

How can any of the Remainers in this thread want to be bound into the EU? They have behaved abominably in the "negotiations". Many of us foresaw this two years ago and we should have played hardball then. This would have given us two years to properly plan for no deal.

We can't blame the EU for everything for what has happened so far in the negotiations thus so far as Theresa May and her government have been pretty much a complete shambles in many aspects since the referendum and the beginning of the talks.