UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Theresa May's backstop was an equally interim measure. All they've done is moved the gun to point the other way. Holding the Single Market hostage. Indeed, by people who believe the Earth was formed 3000 years ago, and don't like Catholics. What does Europe have plenty of?

You been at the Turps again?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Theresa May's backstop was an equally interim measure. All they've done is moved the gun to point the other way. Holding the Single Market hostage. Indeed, by people who believe the Earth was formed 3000 years ago, and don't like Catholics. What does Europe have plenty of?

"Unless and until" is NOT an interim measure. If it is an interim measure then it can safely be removed, can't it? The sole intention of the backstop is for it to be there in one form or another, for ETERNITY.
From the publication, well known for being anti-Irish, "The Guardian"

The Irish goal was to get the border into a legally binding withdrawal agreement – Dublin’s point of maximum leverage – rather than future trade relations, when Dublin would struggle to be heard.

Why should the interests of the other 26 EU countries be held hostage by Ireland?


Northern Europe has plenty of Protestants. They were the ones fighting alongside William of Orange, who also had the support of that well known anti-Catholic, Pope Alexander VIII.

[jfman]

Are the interests of the EU member states being held hostage by Ireland? Or is that your hyperbole?

As far as I can tell Irish interests and EU interests are aligned, the integrity of the Single Market.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Are the interests of the EU member states being held hostage by Ireland? Or is that your hyperbole?

As far as I can tell Irish interests and EU interests are aligned, the integrity of the Single Market.

The EU currently deals with newly created EU borders, so why couldn't it now? Surely the Withdrawal Agreement must be better for the other 26, than hard Brexit.

As the Guardian article states, the Irish got the others to agree under FALSE pretences. If it was about the single market, then the EU would have initiated it and NOT the Irish. How on earth is it right that the EU can IMPOSE a customs union for ETERNITY without explicitly stating that? Where has Parliament voted for that? Where is the agreement to that sets that out, other than the 3 little words of "unless and until"?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The EU currently deals with newly created EU borders, so why couldn't it now? Surely the Withdrawal Agreement must be better for the other 26, than hard Brexit.

As the Guardian article states, the Irish got the others to agree under FALSE pretences. If it was about the single market, then the EU would have initiated it and NOT the Irish. How on earth is it right that the EU can IMPOSE a customs union for ETERNITY without explicitly stating that? Where has Parliament voted for that? Where is the agreement to that sets that out, other than the 3 little words of "unless and until"?

The Guardian article says no such thing. So much spin here I’m surprised you aren’t too dizzy to type.

I’m surprised tiny little old Ireland can trick such a hegemonic technocratic force as the EU to be fair.

Where does the EU deal with newly created borders in any manner other than a manned land border, with customs checks?

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The EU currently deals with newly created EU borders, so why couldn't it now? Surely the Withdrawal Agreement must be better for the other 26, than hard Brexit.

As the Guardian article states, the Irish got the others to agree under FALSE pretences. If it was about the single market, then the EU would have initiated it and NOT the Irish. How on earth is it right that the EU can IMPOSE a customs union for ETERNITY without explicitly stating that? Where has Parliament voted for that? Where is the agreement to that sets that out, other than the 3 little words of "unless and until"?

Ireland in a way have pushed the EU into a catch 22 situation. The other smaller states in the EU are watching to see if the EU sticks up for the "little guy", if it doesn't it risks the break up of the EU.

Roll on 31st Oct. We'll know then.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

The Guardian article says no such thing. So much spin here I’m surprised you aren’t too dizzy to type.

I’m surprised tiny little old Ireland can trick such a hegemonic technocratic force as the EU to be fair.

Where does the EU deal with newly created borders in any manner other than a manned land border, with customs checks?

So it copes with newly created land borders with customs checks. What would be new or different? Still leaves TWO land-sea borders for the Irish to contend with, English Channel and Irish Sea.

Some EU members needed wooing. “There was a feeling that people in Europe had forgotten about Northern Ireland … we needed to re-educate them,” said a source.
Varadkar cited an Irish Times article about a 1972 IRA attack on a customs post. Ministers racked up air miles courting support and invited counterparts to visit the border.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

It is irrelevant. The vote was to leave and if an acceptable deal is not available, we leave without one. End of.

Fine. I am just saying that when people say that Leave voters knew No Deal was a real possibility, even what they voted for, I think there will be quite a few of them who didn’t as it wasn’t a centrepiece of the Leave campaign.

Now some did, some may not have but have come around to the idea and those that are against maybe should have know better. Just saying No Deal was not widely talked about.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So it copes with newly created land borders with customs checks. What would be new or different? Still leaves TWO land-sea borders for the Irish to contend with, English Channel and Irish Sea.

I’m not sure your argument. Once goods are smuggled into the Republic in the absence of checks the single market is under threat. End of.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Damien

Fine. I am just saying that when people say that Leave voters knew No Deal was a real possibility, even what they voted for, I think there will be quite a few of them who didn’t as it wasn’t a centrepiece of the Leave campaign.

Now some did, some may not have but have come around to the idea and those that are against maybe should have know better. Just saying No Deal was not widely talked about.

The "deal"/Withdrawal Agreement has nothing to do with Leave or Remain voting issues. It is part of the Leave(article 50) procedures. It is an optional part of the journey to the destination of Leave. It wasn't a case of "vote leave" and we leave the next day.

The only purpose of the Remain side having a strong opinion on the "deal", is to change the final destination. They might prefer a "less bumpy" route, but that doesn't explain the strength of their support for the "deal" and their determination to impose it.

---------- Post added at 18:52 ---------- Previous post was at 18:44 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m not sure your argument. Once goods are smuggled into the Republic in the absence of checks the single market is under threat. End of.

And that doesn't happen with any other EU border? How did horse meat masquerading as beef get into the UK from the EU?

What is wrong with having checks? Wherever the "border" is set, ie Irish Sea or NI, then there will be checks.

Turkey is in a customs union with the EU, but still there are checks and other assorted EU imposed problems.

[jfman]

The integrity of your border isn’t an EU imposed problem.

As I’ve said before would we be happy for illegal migrants to cross an open border into Great Britain?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

It's almost as if a second referendum is the answer!

Probably if Boris can't get us out on 31-October.

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

It is irrelevant. The vote was to leave and if an acceptable deal is not available, we leave without one. End of.

... and what's more, Cameron said publicly that the choice was to remain in the EU or "leave altogether".

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

The integrity of your border isn’t an EU imposed problem.

As I’ve said before would we be happy for illegal migrants to cross an open border into Great Britain?

So how do illegal immigrants get into the EU in the first place? They currently get into the UK from France and Ireland. The EU is the biggest threat to the integrity of the UK border.



Imposing a customs union comes from Ireland via the EU. The UK and NI will not get a say on any changes. Strange that all the people complaining about Trump wanting to ensure the integrity of the US border, are pretty much the same ones complaining about the integrity of the EU border.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So how do illegal immigrants get into the EU in the first place? They currently get into the UK from France and Ireland. The EU is the biggest threat to the integrity of the UK border.

Imposing a customs union comes from Ireland via the EU. The UK and NI will not get a say on any changes. Strange that all the people complaining about Trump wanting to ensure the integrity of the US border, are pretty much the same ones complaining about the integrity of the EU border.

I’ve no issue with the USA controlling migration effectively if it’s done in a humane way. Hell even the left wing part of me likes large state funded projects. It’s not an effective way to do it though - given it’ll be a fence for the most part a Mexican with wire cutters is on his way. It’s a big expensive dog whistle to his racist supporters.

Nor am I complaining about the integrity of the EU border - we voted to leave and establish a border - I don’t see why they should make it easier for us to do so by allowing us to ignore our obligations to prevent smuggling over the border.

I really don’t know why people who understand the dangers of the movement of people over borders so well can’t understand the dangers of the illegal supply of cheap, substandard goods.

[pip08456]

Adam Parsons a Sky europe correspondant has an interesting article.

To get a Brexit deal you first need to solve a paradox