Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[Florence]

I hadn't thought about the intrusion on closed areas of forums I am a moderator and have access to information that only mods and Admins of the froum can access.

I just did a search of keywords to see howmany times they are repeated on threads this program could net a lot of private data.

[Toto]

Originally Posted by Sirius

The fact is that people will perceive this to be Spyware even if it turns out not to be. The mere fact that this company has been involved with Spyware and Root kits is where they will ultimately fail as a company and a trusted part of the system.

The trust they need in this product will never be achieved.

Indeed, the common and trusted spyware programs will have detection scripts in a matter of days when this system becomes mainstream, regardless of how well its sold on its customer privacy policy...simple as that.

As it stands its simply the case of identify a common OIX cookie denominator, then advising the client to remove it. And as posted already, plug-ins are now starting to be developed to simply block the cookie.....and a lot more.

[Jayceef1]

Originally Posted by Sirius

The fact is that people will perceive this to be Spyware even if it turns out not to be. The mere fact that this company has been involved with Spyware and Root kits is where they will ultimately fail as a company and a trusted part of the system.

The trust they need in this product will never be achieved.

The problem is that peoples perception has been coloured by all the chinese whispers on this and other forums made by people with their own unfounded interpretations of what phorm is designed to do. This fiction then "becomes fact" in peoples eyes and the hysteria continues.

You could also argue that because the company was allegedly involved in spyware previously it would be the ideal company that could prevent it going forward as a "poacher turned gamekeeper". Someone as already suggested in the VM newsgroup that they use someone like that to test it.

The information that Phorm would use is probably the least likely of anything used by anyone else to capture personal info. You are at far greater risk elsewhere on the net.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Jayceef1

The problem is that peoples perception has been coloured by all the chinese whispers on this and other forums made by people with their own unfounded interpretations of what phorm is designed to do. This fiction then "becomes fact" in peoples eyes and the hysteria continues.

You could also argue that because the company was allegedly involved in spyware previously it would be the ideal company that could prevent it going forward as a "poacher turned gamekeeper". Someone as already suggested in the VM newsgroup that they use someone like that to test it.

The information that Phorm would use is probably the least likely of anything used by anyone else to capture personal info. You are at far greater risk elsewhere on the net.

However they will never ever get my trust.

I WILL dump all my services from VM unless they can guarantee in writing that my data will not touch any equipment that have been installed anywhere to facilitate this selling of private data after i have hit the OPT OUT Button. If it passes through any equipment no matter where in the system it is and has been provided by Phorm or its agents and has Phorm designed software on it then i will not TRUST them to do as i have asked. Its that simple ?.

[Jayceef1]

Originally Posted by Sirius

However they will never ever get my trust.

I WILL dump all my services from VM unless they can guarantee in writing that my data will not touch any equipment that have been installed anywhere to facilitate this selling of private data after i have hit the OPT OUT Button. If it passes through any equipment no matter where in the system it is and has been provided by Phorm or its agents and has Phorm designed software on it then i will not TRUST them to do as i have asked. Its that simple ?.

And where would you go? It is likely that others will follow suit. Again there is misinformation as they categorically state that they do not collect private data.

I don't particularly agree with it but it does appear to be a mountain out of a molehill and everyone making rash decisions before all the facts are known.

Originally Posted by Jayceef1

The problem is that peoples perception has been coloured by all the chinese whispers on this and other forums made by people with their own unfounded interpretations of what phorm is designed to do. This fiction then "becomes fact" in peoples eyes and the hysteria continues.

You could also argue that because the company was allegedly involved in spyware previously it would be the ideal company that could prevent it going forward as a "poacher turned gamekeeper". Someone as already suggested in the VM newsgroup that they use someone like that to test it.

The information that Phorm would use is probably the least likely of anything used by anyone else to capture personal info. You are at far greater risk elsewhere on the net.

Whatever the past misdeeds of Phorm and whatever their current merit (and I'm not convinced of that, by the way, I'm just being charitable), the fact is, privacy and freedom are two of the most jealously cherished attributes of the internet. Any suggestion of tracking usage, and worse, actually *using* the data thus collected, no matter what 'safeguards' are put in place, was always bound to lead to 'hysteria' as you call it. They should have seen it coming. Actually, they probably did, hence their signing up a megabucks PR agency to spin it for them.

I feel bound to point out, that any system which relies on human compliance for its security is flawed by design. The very fact that Ernst and Young *need* to check to ensure it's not being abused, demonstrates that is capable of being abused. And as surely as one person's stupidity can lead to 25 million child benefit records going astray, sooner or later that abuse, whether by accident or with malice, will occur.

Never underestimate the willingness of large corporations to resort to nefarious tactics when they think their bottom line is at stake. Sony and rootkits comes to mind - and were it not for the vigilance of one extremely accomplished blogger, we would still be completely oblivious to that.

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by Sirius

However they will never ever get my trust.

I WILL dump all my services from VM unless they can guarantee in writing that my data will not touch any equipment that have been installed anywhere to facilitate this selling of private data after i have hit the OPT OUT Button. If it passes through any equipment no matter where in the system it is and has been provided by Phorm or its agents and has Phorm designed software on it then i will not TRUST them to do as i have asked. Its that simple ?.

tend to agree with you there i staid with virgin for bb despite leaving for sky but if they go ahead with this i will be off to some other provider

[Jayceef1]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Whatever the past misdeeds of Phorm and whatever their current merit (and I'm not convinced of that, by the way, I'm just being charitable), the fact is, privacy and freedom are two of the most jealously cherished attributes of the internet. Any suggestion of tracking usage, and worse, actually *using* the data thus collected, no matter what 'safeguards' are put in place, was always bound to lead to 'hysteria' as you call it. They should have seen it coming. Actually, they probably did, hence their signing up a megabucks PR agency to spin it for them.

Agree with the first part but I have seen nothing that remotely suggests tracking and using data in the way you imply other than the way it is intended. apologies if I misunderstand you.

Originally Posted by Chris T

I feel bound to point out, that any system which relies on human compliance for its security is flawed by design. The very fact that Ernst and Young *need* to check to ensure it's not being abused, demonstrates that is capable of being abused. And as surely as one person's stupidity can lead to 25 million child benefit records going astray, sooner or later that abuse, whether by accident or with malice, will occur.

I saw no reference to human intervention in the system and I am not sure about your ref to E&Y. Anyone can make a claim about something. Unless it is checked how do you know it is true? (They said the Titanic was unsinkable. unfortunately nobody checked before it sailed). We have had almost weekly real personal data loss from various govt depts which are many times worse. Yet any outcry dies down after a few days despite the risk being actual as opposed to vaguely remotely possible if at all with this

Originally Posted by Chris T

Never underestimate the willingness of large corporations to resort to nefarious tactics when they think their bottom line is at stake. Sony and rootkits comes to mind - and were it not for the vigilance of one extremely accomplished blogger, we would still be completely oblivious to that.

Yes I agree with that but that will take human intervention and you can never eliminate risk entirely. Chip & Pin was supposed to reduce if not eliminate card fraud yet it has increased.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by rogermevans

tend to agree with you there i staid with virgin for bb despite leaving for sky but if they go ahead with this i will be off to some other provider

Originally Posted by Jayceef1

And where would you go? It is likely that others will follow suit.

I will keep moving till i cannot move no more.

I have received an email from BE Unlimited stating they are not signing up with Phorm. Looks like they will get my custom.

[mertle]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Whatever the past misdeeds of Phorm and whatever their current merit (and I'm not convinced of that, by the way, I'm just being charitable), the fact is, privacy and freedom are two of the most jealously cherished attributes of the internet. Any suggestion of tracking usage, and worse, actually *using* the data thus collected, no matter what 'safeguards' are put in place, was always bound to lead to 'hysteria' as you call it. They should have seen it coming. Actually, they probably did, hence their signing up a megabucks PR agency to spin it for them.

I feel bound to point out, that any system which relies on human compliance for its security is flawed by design. The very fact that Ernst and Young *need* to check to ensure it's not being abused, demonstrates that is capable of being abused. And as surely as one person's stupidity can lead to 25 million child benefit records going astray, sooner or later that abuse, whether by accident or with malice, will occur.

Never underestimate the willingness of large corporations to resort to nefarious tactics when they think their bottom line is at stake. Sony and rootkits comes to mind - and were it not for the vigilance of one extremely accomplished blogger, we would still be completely oblivious to that.

Well said I would also like to add my grievence.

I also in the camp a leopard does not change its spots.

I would never trust a company who admited to doing dodgy malware, rootkits to administer something of this magnitude in an angelic manner.


I simply dont trust them and firmly think they are scaring people to try make out there system is to protect us and in return we get there rubbish advertising. I really do feel there is lot porkies of its true intentions.

This so called phishing is preventable as long as we are vigilant.

Make sure the website is what it is by simple checks of the website before parting with sensative details. We dont need webwise or Phorm protection to do this and hold our hand with a smoking gun to our head.

If it was anti phishing protection why not VM setup a protection itself without dodgy companies inhand. Thats my ultimate issue with VM and Phorm are not being honest.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Jayceef1

And where would you go? It is likely that others will follow suit. Again there is misinformation as they categorically state that they do not collect private data.

I don't particularly agree with it but it does appear to be a mountain out of a molehill and everyone making rash decisions before all the facts are known.

So are you happy for you surfing habits being sold to a third party company for profit over and above what you are already paying VirginMedia for your Service. Are you then happy to be hit with adverts that you then have no control over that could have been taken from information that was detected from the last person in you family that used your PC. Are you happy that there could be instances where a child will be subject to adult situations because the previous user was a adult ??????

Are you happy that your data will still be sent to a Phorm server located in a Virgin Media pop sites even when you have Opted out, And given the past software and root kit infections that that equipment supplier issued out are you happy to trust that they will not just ignore you and use you data anyway.

[popper]

heres the potential reason the likes of Phorm want in on the market.
http://www.dailywireless.org/2008/03...data-for-sale/
"
Your Data: For Sale

A new study from comScore and The New York Times attempts for the first time to estimate how much consumer data is transmitted to Internet companies. It finds that the five largest Web firms — Yahoo, Google, Microsoft, AOL and MySpace — record at least 336 billion transmission events in a month, not counting their ad networks.
The analysis, conducted for The New York Times by the research firm comScore, is said to provide the first broad estimate of the amount of consumer data that is transmitted to Internet companies.

“When you start to get into the details, it’s scarier than you might suspect,” said Marc Rotenberg, executive director of privacy group the Electronic Privacy Information Center. “We’re recording preferences, hopes, worries and fears.”
....
"

the full two pager here
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/te...ss&oref=slogin
"To Aim Ads, Web Is Keeping Closer Eye on You
By LOUISE STORY
Published: March 10, 2008
A famous New Yorker cartoon from 1993 showed two dogs at a computer, with one saying to the other, “On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.”
That may no longer be true.

....
Consumers have not complained to any great extent about data collection online. But privacy experts say that is because the collection is invisible to them. Unlike Facebook’s Beacon program, which stirred controversy last year when it broadcast its members’ purchases to their online friends, most companies do not flash a notice on the screen when they collect data about visitors to their sites.

“When you start to get into the details, it’s scarier than you might suspect,” said Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a privacy rights group. “We’re recording preferences, hopes, worries and fears.”

But executives from the largest Web companies say that privacy fears are misplaced, and that they have policies in place to protect consumers’ names and other personal information from advertisers. Moreover, they say, the data is a boon to consumers, because it makes the ads they see more relevant.

.....
Large Web companies like Microsoft and Yahoo have also acquired a number of companies in the last year that have rich consumer data.

“So many of the deals are really about data,” said David Verklin, chief executive of Carat Americas, an ad agency in the Aegis Group that decides where to place ads for clients.

..."

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Jayceef1

From my understanding they will not be taking data from form fields which is where details like this are entered. So unlikely to be picked up.

They will not be. But could do... If they are parsing the entire HTML sent or recieved they will have visibility to this but will discard the data. What's not to say that in the future the company, the government or Mulder and Scully request this information.

[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by Ravenheart

Another good piece on the Register this morning HERE

And Phorm's shares are down 20% this morning too
http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...PHRM.L&it%3Dle

Keep up the great work folks

Excellent article.

Many good points, especially...

Originally Posted by The Register

BT, Virgin Media and Carphone Warehouse tell us that the internet will be "more relevant" thanks to ads targeted on the content of every page we visit. That's classic misdirection. The ISPs are claiming they're doing us all a favour by solving a problem that doesn't exist in any mind but that of a marketeer. At best it's patronising and cowardly.


(snip)


The whole wheeze is predicated on arrogance and the lamentably correct assumption that most people will just swallow the anti-phishing marketing when the Webwise opt-in page pops up.

(snip)

That last part is probably sadly true - most will probably just swallow the marketing & go along with it.

[popper]

this comment on that share price site
http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...PHRM.L&it%3Dle
1900 : 1985 (-31.84%)

sums up most investors thinking...
http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...ail&id=3947835
"Message

I know very little about this company and the technology, but the fact that there has been so much public opinion about it recently then I feel it must have something that someone will buy.

In truth I believe that AT&T are looking and if all the major players are on then no matter what the initial public backlash is there will be revenue.
"