What do you think happens when we die?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

I made it perfectly clear from the start I did not want to discuss my faith further but you went on and on and on when simply you could have just left it. I wasn't offended I was just pissed off you would not drop it

I recommend you revisit the thread. You made two statements that I responded to in a single post. That's it. Get a grip man ..

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I recommend you revisit the thread. You made two statements that I responded to in a single post. That's it. Get a grip man ..

My very first statement included

I am a Christian although some fellow Christians will not accept me as one but that is a debate I do not want to have on this forum

So you trying to draw me into a debate in the first place was disrespectful so you get some manners and I will get a grip. Deal?

I will just ignore you from this point forward

Sorry I’ve not been back into this thread until now. I promised I’d give my what with me having been the forum Christian since day one (and now officially doing ‘Christian’ for a day job too)

A couple of side observations first; the main one being that it will never be possible to prove with science what happens after you die. The scientific method was designed to observe and understand the material universe. What we’re discussing here is by definition outside of the material universe and therefore beyond science. I should also add that the scientific method was devised by European medieval monks who wanted to better understand God’s creation in order to deepen their worship of him.

It’s also worth noting that almost 350 years after the start of the Enlightenment, religious faith is alive and well and in fact thriving. Science has described the mechanics of the observable universe in sometimes exquisite detail but it is unable to answer the question ‘why?’ Human beings are hard-wired to search for meaning. Science cannot provide it (and humanists, for this reason, have tended to double down and insist there is no meaning, and explain away the human desire for meaning as an artefact of the way we’re constructed by the blind watchmaker of evolution).

The problem with humanism if strictly applied is it results in human relationships that are strictly transactional. There is little, perhaps no, room for selfless behaviour, yet the world, for all its brokenness, is full of examples of extreme love and sacrifice. There is something in the way we are made that I do not believe can adequately be explained away by ‘survival of the fittest’.

I believe we were all created by a God who is the very definition of love and that love is best seen in a period of history when God himself was born as a human being, to spend decades living and growing with us, feeling our brokenness and pain, teaching us there is a way to live, despite all of that, that is able to bring us into the presence of God himself. This Jesus exemplified that different way of living and ultimately proved that selfless love and sacrifice trumps everything else by dying, unjustly, a thief’s death but then beating even death and rising back to life.

While hanging on the cross alongside two thieves, he assured one of them - the one who understood Jesus had come from an eternal kingdom and was returning to it - to remember him. In return, Jesus assured the thief he would be with him in Paradise. And that, to answer the OP’s question, is what I am convinced happens when anyone dies with an appeal for Jesus to remember them. There is an eternal kingdom, and anyone who acknowledges its King may rest there. There is of course the matter of what happens when anyone dies without resting all their hope in Jesus. The best answer I can give to that is based on a work of C S Lewis which is not so well known outside of Christian circles, called ‘The Great Divorce’. In it, Lewis imagines an eternal landscape in which those who have refused to acknowledge the King of Heaven are unable to enter it because they remain preoccupied with all the same things that preoccupied them on earth. They simply can’t enter heaven because their preoccupation with themselves means they are unable to take in the reality of it.

Beyond that, I am convinced, as Jesus promised, that ultimately there is a physical resurrection and life on a new earth in which the material/spiritual bridge between heaven and earth has been re-made. In the end, we were created to be physical beings and that is what we will be. But that’s much further down the line than the question ‘what happens when we die’.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Chris

Beyond that, I am convinced, as Jesus promised, that ultimately there is a physical resurrection and life on a new earth in which the material/spiritual bridge between heaven and earth has been re-made. In the end, we were created to be physical beings and that is what we will be. But that’s much further down the line than the question ‘what happens when we die’.

Very interesting read Chris and I am pleasantly surprised to see this part which to be honest I have never seen or heard another Christian Faith say before

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

Very interesting read Chris and I am pleasantly surprised to see this part which to be honest I have never seen or heard another Christian Faith say before

I suspect it’s because the church has for centuries been mostly preoccupied with the question of what happens immediately upon death, this being the thing that concerns most people. The ‘new heaven and new earth’ spoken of at the very end of the Revelation doesn’t get much of a look-in. But it is very much a part of the less congregation-focused, more academic theological discussion across many Christian denominations, and in fact a few of the more Charismatic churches tend to dwell on it more. I know this ‘ultimate state’ does feature more prominently in the teaching at the Kingdom Hall you’re more used to.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Chris

I suspect it’s because the church has for centuries been mostly preoccupied with the question of what happens immediately upon death, this being the thing that concerns most people. The ‘new heaven and new earth’ spoken of at the very end of the Revelation doesn’t get much of a look-in. But it is very much a part of the less congregation-focused, more academic theological discussion across many Christian denominations, and in fact a few of the more Charismatic churches tend to dwell on it more. I know this ‘ultimate state’ does feature more prominently in the teaching at the Kingdom Hall you’re more used to.

Very interesting and surprising in a good way

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Chris

Beyond that, I am convinced, as Jesus promised, that ultimately there is a physical resurrection and life on a new earth in which the material/spiritual bridge between heaven and earth has been re-made. In the end, we were created to be physical beings and that is what we will be. But that’s much further down the line than the question ‘what happens when we die’.

I would like to believe this to. Some great points you have there.

I guess the thing we don't know is in what form do we enter heaven?

Are you in your young twenties, are you entering in the same state as you left earth?
What do you do there? Do you get to see those living on earth?


And those that don't believe....What happens to them? or the ones that have killed someone so therfore have committed awful crimes?
Will the man that cheated on his wife be allowed in heaven even though he was married so committed a sin?
Are child murderers in eternal hell?


So many questions that I don't think we will ever know the answer to.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I would like to believe this too. Some great points you have there.

Thank you Christian faith does propose answers for some of the questions you’ve posed below … I’ll have a go at them one at a time if that’s ok:

I guess the thing we don't know is in what form do we enter heaven?

Paradise, as promised to the thief on the cross alongside Jesus, was a Hebrew concept. It isn’t the final heaven, but it is a restful, spiritual and heaven-like state. A sort of waiting room if you like. The concept has most likely been borrowed from ancient Persia, as it seems to have come from a root word that basically means ‘game reserve’. Think of it as an immense, lush garden full of fruitful things and animals for the hunt (and imagine how good that would sound if you were a man of the ancient world - I know we don’t go in for hunting much now, but it’s the concept of abundant rest that’s important).

Hades, on the other hand, is commonly mistranslated ‘hell’ in many older English translations of the Bible, but in fact it’s important to maintain a distinction. It is a realm of gloom inhabited by disembodied souls after death. Its deep unpleasantness is enhanced by the fact that those within it are on some level aware of paradise in the far distance, but are unable to reach it. It is not anyone’s final resting place but the New Testament states in a number of places that it is where the faithless go immediately after they die.

The New Testament speaks of a physical resurrection and judgment by God for all inhabitants of both realms at a point in the future. This occurs for all at the same time, not immediately on death.

Are you in your young twenties, are you entering in the same state as you left earth?

To quote Patrick Moore: we simply don’t know. . However, Jesus, once resurrected, had an adult human body and could eat and drink. However his resurrection body was also capable of passing through solid walls and travelling between earth and heaven. That’s what Christian theology teaches is the final state of all the faithful, however as we exist in a spiritual state right after death, I truly don’t know what I’ll look like!

What do you do there?

The concept of paradise used by Jesus to describe where he and the thief were about to go is one that is heavy on the idea of rest.

Do you get to see those living on earth?

Roman Catholics would say yes, because they believe they can ask the Saints in heaven to pray for them to God (so the saints would have to be able to hear their petitions from down on earth). Personally I don’t see how that’s compatible with the idea of true rest at the end of life, or faith in God who does continue to see and hear everything.

And those that don't believe....What happens to them?
or the ones that have killed someone so therfore have committed awful crimes?
Will the man that cheated on his wife be allowed in heaven even though he was married so committed a sin?
Are child murderers in eternal hell?

The problem with these questions (and this isn’t a dig at you personally, just the general concept) is that they always assume there is a line between misdemeanours that God doesn’t really worry too much about, and real offensive stinkers for which certain people ‘deserve’ punishment.

The further problem is that people asking such questions almost always see themselves as being on the ‘right’ side of that distinction and certain other people as being on the ‘wrong’ side of it.

Christian belief about sin is that every person, no matter how well intentioned, falls short of perfect holiness (which only God has). So we have messed up, and being imperfect are unable to rectify that ourselves. This is why Christians believe that Jesus, in coming to Earth, living a perfect life, suffering an unjust death, and proving he’s stronger than death by rising again to life, is the only one able to bridge that holy gap between humans and God. Christians believe that *every*single*one* of us, without exception, has committed behaviour that excludes us from eternal life and it is only faith in Jesus, believing and accepting his life within us, that makes it possible for us to attain that eternal life.

So many questions that I don't think we will ever know the answer to.

Jesus, as recorded in the New Testament of the Bible, claimed to be the answer to all of those questions, and the peace to accept we won’t apprehend all of those answers in this life.

I think I’ve given rather more than now.

[Halcyon]

Chris, this has been most helpful.


I was born and baptised in a catholic church but then my faith was not a big part of my life.
As I got married and had children I began to attend church again, this time the church of England and would say I believe in the Christian way of life.


I am far from the perfect man and I admit that I am not a regular church goer. We often have very busy weekends as a family, however maybe I should try and place more time for church in our lives.
The idea of there being a place where we can reflect on life and where we want to be next sounds good. A sort of place to decide if we want to better ourselves and join God in paradise.


As for giving your two pence worth, I think you've helped me out many times since 2003 when I first joined. So if I ever bump in to you one day, I owe you a drink or two.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

My very first statement included



So you trying to draw me into a debate in the first place was disrespectful so you get some manners and I will get a grip. Deal?

I will just ignore you from this point forward

Yes, you said:

I am a Christian although some fellow Christians will not accept me as one but that is a debate I do not want to have on this forum

I never challenged you why other Christians will not accept you. This is what you asked not to debate.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

Paradise, as promised to the thief on the cross alongside Jesus, was a Hebrew concept. It isn’t the final heaven, but it is a restful, spiritual and heaven-like state. A sort of waiting room if you like. The concept has most likely been borrowed from ancient Persia, as it seems to have come from a root word that basically means ‘game reserve’. Think of it as an immense, lush garden full of fruitful things and animals for the hunt (and imagine how good that would sound if you were a man of the ancient world - I know we don’t go in for hunting much now, but it’s the concept of abundant rest that’s important).

I heard someone who had a not near death but actually dead experience who was brought back after quite sometime, he said it fealt like he had no physical form, he seem to know everything, wanted for nothing and was just very relaxed and at peace, that sounded like heaven to me

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I heard someone who had a not near death but actually dead experience who was brought back after quite sometime, he said it fealt like he had no physical form, he seem to know everything, wanted for nothing and was just very relaxed and at peace, that sounded like heaven to me

Yes, it certainly would. I’m not saying the place where souls rest upon death isn’t really heaven so much as heaven is a more multi-layered place than we perhaps think.

The Greek word for Heaven In the first line of the Lord’s Prayer, ‘Our Father in Heaven’ is ouranous* whereas on the cross Jesus promises the thief “you will be with me in paradise’ - Greek paradeisos.

Both are in the heavens where God dwells but they are different spaces used for different things.

*(Incidentally, the same Greek word as a proper noun is the name of the mythical Greek celestial being we know as Uranus, the personification of heaven)

[Ms NTL]

Originally Posted by Chris

Yes, it certainly would. I’m not saying the place where souls rest upon death isn’t really heaven so much as heaven is a more multi-layered place than we perhaps think.

The Greek word for Heaven In the first line of the Lord’s Prayer, ‘Our Father in Heaven’ is ouranous* whereas on the cross Jesus promises the thief “you will be with me in paradise’ - Greek paradeisos.

Both are in the heavens where God dwells but they are different spaces used for different things.

*(Incidentally, the same Greek word as a proper noun is the name of the mythical Greek celestial being we know as Uranus, the personification of heaven)

"ouranos" is also sky in modern Greek

[idi banashapan]

Originally Posted by ianch99

A strange statement. As I mentioned before, as this is a public forum I had assumed that if someone make a statement, you could respond with a counter argument. I am not "enforcing" anything here. Your position here is slightly sinister: do not ask questions or you may offend someone. Sound's familiar?

My position is in no way sinister. Those who have been members here for a long time will no very well I highly oppose a 'do not ask questions or you may offend someone' stance. I have indeed argued the same point about it being a debate forum and that should we only allow contributions that fell in line with other's views, this would be nothing more than a stale utopia that acheives nothing more than a series of back patting - it would get us nowhere. The moment we stop asking why is the moment we stop progressing. Those same people (and as I'm sure you will also learn if you ever have the time to go through older threads), will also know I am in no way religious and have struggled in the past with understanding why someone would follow any ideaology, faith related or not.

And so I agree, we should ask questions in order to better our knowledge, to better understand others and to allow everyone exposure a points of views they may not have considered before. This mindset has allowed me to come the realisation that having a faith and how one expresses that faith are mutually exclusive of one another.

This does not mean one needs to be disrespectful in order to stimulate conversation. As my previous comment said, we should debate and argue the implementation of faith.

However, when it comes to the faith someone holds itself, debating it can be a pointless task. Faith is not something bourne of tactile possessions, of repeatable and measurable testing or any kind of 'proof' that those of us who don't follow faith would accept as enough to convince us it was a real thing.

Belief, Fact and Truth are different things. Sometimes they can be related. Sometimes they are not. For example, if I told you my car was blue, you could take that as the truth because you had belief in what I said. The fact might be my car is red, but until you find out for yourself by seeing it, you have no reason to dimiss your belief my car is blue.

And so religion can be approached by 2 angles;

The first is how I would approach it - I need to see facts that support, without reasonable doubt, there is a God who made and controls everything, before I can believe. Thus I believe the truth is that there is not God because no facts I have seen support the notion of God.

The second would be that until fact are presented that support the notion there is no God, one would choose the believe there is one, because faith has allowed that person to have a God as their truth.

The point is, both of those situations are fine. So long as no harm is done, n one is limited or oppressed due to their belief and no one is forced to believe one thing over the other without the choice being their own, it simply doesn't matter. People should be allowed to believe what they like on the premise no one suffers as a result.

Sometimes though, people may not want to speak about things that are very personal to them. This could be for many reasons. And whilst I too would have many questions for Jaymoss about why they have faith at all and what they believe, there has been a clear request by Jaymoss not to be put in a position where they are questioned about the faith / belief.

Chris here (and Russ if he's still about) know full well I am very vocal and question deeply their expression of faith and the actions they take based on it. And I do this to better understand. I know I can come across as being difficult or a bit of an arse when I do it, but I genuinely want to have a clearer understanding from the perspective of someone who has the capacity to involve and dedicate themselves to something I simply cannot. And whilst I push and debate areas such as making ones children follow an ideaology when they don't have a choice in the matter (which is an implementation of their faith and I feel should be discussed), the point at which anyone would ask me not to question why they have faith or what they believe, just drop it. What does it matter? Whilst it doesn't affect my life, what should I care?

So no, I do not have a position that dictates we should not ask because it might offend someone (people can be as offended as they like - that's up to them and not my problem. There's no rule against offending people as it is very subjective), I do respect a position that when someone says they do not wish to talk about something personal to them, stop pushing.


TL;DR

• I'm not religious
• I have difficulty understanding the mindset of someone who is religious without any proof to back it up
• I absolutely do not think we should not ask questions because it might offend someone - you can be as offended as you like, it doesn't mean I have to find it offensive too
• I absolutely do think that if someone says openly they do not wish to discuss something personal to them, it should be respected
• I'm probably one of the most provocative and questioning people here when it comes to religion, but only whilst others are open to discuss

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I heard someone who had a not near death but actually dead experience who was brought back after quite sometime, he said it fealt like he had no physical form, he seem to know everything, wanted for nothing and was just very relaxed and at peace, that sounded like heaven to me

Sounds like oxygen starvation of the brain to me that can give a euphoric effect. It is a bit reassuring that at the end of life the human body gives you a natural high.