The state benefits system mega-thread.

Originally Posted by peanut

From what I see on this forum the people that have something to say here are not the 'unemployed workshy' but mainly the sick and disabled.

And the sick and disabled can not work harder to support ourselves, and I don't see anyone here actually defending the the workshy either.

I must be reading a different forum to you, I don't see the 'rich vs the poor' thing and the 'them as us thing' it's the usual against the usual but just a different subject.

The way i see it is certain posters keep interjecting disability into the argument and using it as a reason not to cut welfare .Some posters need to realise that welfare arguments do not always mean that the disabled are being picked on ,in fact the whole point of welfare reform is to make it fairer on workers and make sure the money is there to support those that really need it.

Originally Posted by Osem

I think that for some people it's easier to turn this issue into a them and us, rich v. poor, right v. left argument than accepting the reality that the welfare state cannot carry on supporting people who could and should be working harder to support themselves.

as said no one here is saying any different about the welfare state do you think we are? I for one keep on saying the weakest and poorest are getting effected as well I also said yesterday or whenever that the workshy will play the game go to meeting sign on do their stuff then stuff up any interviews anyway so it wont effect them as hard as the innocents

---------- Post added at 20:19 ---------- Previous post was at 20:18 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

The way i see it is certain posters keep interjecting disability into the argument and using it as a reason not to cut welfare .Some posters need to realise that welfare arguments do not always mean that the disabled are being picked on ,in fact the whole point of welfare reform is to make it fairer on workers and make sure the money is there to support those that really need it.

the disabled are being effected as well the whole atos issue is about that side of it

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Gary L

You sound like you're preaching again, Chris

Why should anyone have to be jealous of someone's wealth in this 'argument' I don't know.
who started that one?

I think it was Stuart, he was jealous that some one on the dole could afford £200 trainers

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Taf

As Carers of our own handicapped twins (now young adults), My wife and I are very, very grateful for the Benefits we receive to allow us to continue our roles.

We aren't rolling in money, but make do and pay our bills. A short period of respite would be a nice gesture, but it has never happened in over 21 years, so we're not holding our breath.

I have often received verbal bashings from both working and unemployed people, thinking that being a full time Carer is somehow a "skive" or a "cushy life". Sadly, or poignantly, several have had to become Carers for members of their own family, and now see us in a totally different light.

I suppose it would be the same with workers who slag off unemployed people, then become one themselves.

Despite the REAL inflation rates, I reckon many in our position would have accepted a 0% rise in benefits if it meant getting this country out of the mess it's in financially.

But looking at IDS's future plans for the "less" disabled, I fear we may be in for a rough ride ahead when the axe falls soon with PIP coming in to replace DLA. The ATOS assessments were hell enough, but I think IDS has further nasty surprises for us at the bottom of the pile.

Well there are always ignorant people who make judgements based on very little but I reckon most people here, myself included, reckon you're doing as much as anyone could reasonably expect. Credit to you for that!

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Will21st

I very much doubt most of Britain is depressed

Why not?
I'd say a lot of people don't see much of a future at the moment.
and then you got people who are just depressed with Dave's face and voice.

and even if it was how do you know it's related to being unemployed?

You have just discounted many workers from being able to be a bit depressed. or did you mean the prospect of being made unemployed in their case?

You do realise that it was Labour who took the school milk away from 11 to 18 year olds in 1968,don't you?

I'll ask Marty to check again.

---------- Post added at 20:23 ---------- Previous post was at 20:21 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I think it was Stuart, he was jealous that some one on the dole could afford £200 trainers

They probably bought them on the 'Buy Now, Pay Next Year When You Get a Job' in the catalogue.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

as said no one here is saying any different about the welfare state do you think we are? I for one keep on saying the weakest and poorest are getting effected as well I also said yesterday or whenever that the workshy will play the game go to meeting sign on do their stuff then stuff up any interviews anyway so it wont effect them as hard as the innocents

I refer the honourable gentleman to my earlier reply to Peanut.

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

the disabled are being effected as well the whole atos issue is about that side of it

Yes they are ,everyone on benefits is being affected ,as i pointed out yesterday we can continue to have a reduced system available for all now or a much reduced system for the few in future years .If we don't have the cuts now who would receive benefits in future when we can't have a system for all .Do you want to make that decision ? would you choose the severely disabled over the not so disabled ,would you tell fit unemployed to fend for themselves and if they don't they starve ,lose their homes .Or would you prefer to give everyone who needs it enough to survive on .I know what i prefer.
Yes people are going to struggle but they will survive the alternative is frightening and also very short sighted and a great disservice to future generations

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by martyh

in fact the whole point of welfare reform is to make it fairer on workers and make sure the money is there to support those that really need it.

They went for the disabled first.
the workers and the non workers looked on.
then they went for the non workers. the workers looked on.

and it all stops there?
nothing for the disabled and the non workers to look on upon?

Originally Posted by martyh

Yes they are ,everyone on benefits is being affected ,as i pointed out yesterday we can continue to have a reduced system available for all now or a much reduced system for the few in future years .If we don't have the cuts now who would receive benefits in future when we can't have a system for all .Do you want to make that decision ? would you choose the severely disabled over the not so disabled ,would you tell fit unemployed to fend for themselves and if they don't they starve ,lose their homes .Or would you prefer to give everyone who needs it enough to survive on .I know what i prefer.
Yes people are going to struggle but they will survive the alternative is frightening and also very short sighted and a great disservice to future generations

what do you think the future hold anyway? whats going to happen when the oil runs out? the gas? what happens when only a few get the power because there is not enough to go around. What happens when all the bees die or the amount of unfarmable land out numbers the farm land? what happens when there is not enough food to feed everyone? The future is pretty bleak no matter what we do today

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

what do you think the future hold anyway? whats going to happen when the oil runs out? the gas? what happens when only a few get the power because there is not enough to go around. What happens when all the bees die or the amount of unfarmable land out numbers the farm land? what happens when there is not enough food to feed everyone? The future is pretty bleak no matter what we do today

how about you answer my questions instead of going with the extremely defeatist attitude you have just displayed

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

what do you think the future hold anyway? whats going to happen when the oil runs out? the gas? what happens when only a few get the power because there is not enough to go around. What happens when all the bees die or the amount of unfarmable land out numbers the farm land? what happens when there is not enough food to feed everyone? The future is pretty bleak no matter what we do today

What happens when all the bees die?

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Come on will the old boy net work is as alive and kicking today as it ever has been, I love the way these ministers get sacked for incompetence or impropriety one day and all but the next are the best person to save a different failing department.

Yes,like I said the old boy network exists,but even that network only goes so far.In any case we were talking about start in Life though,weren't we?

Originally Posted by martyh

The way i see it is certain posters keep interjecting disability into the argument and using it as a reason not to cut welfare .Some posters need to realise that welfare arguments do not always mean that the disabled are being picked on ,in fact the whole point of welfare reform is to make it fairer on workers and make sure the money is there to support those that really need it.

Yup,that's exactly what they're doing to get kind of a guilt trip going,or maybe to paint themselves as victims and poor creatures who shouldn't have to sacrifice?

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I think it was Stuart, he was jealous that some one on the dole could afford £200 trainers

Rubbish... he's just wondering how it's possible for someone to work full-time and not be able to afford such trainers and for someone on benefits to be able to do just that. Is that sensible?

Work should always pay,that's the bottom line.If someone on benefits can afford more,or as in some cases families on benefits have more disposable income than working families then there's something seriously wrong with the system. Agreed?

Originally Posted by Gary L

Why not?
I'd say a lot of people don't see much of a future at the moment.
and then you got people who are just depressed with Dave's face and voice.

Maybe you should go and see your GP about your 'Dave depression'. If Dave's face and voice are enough to cause depression I'd say you got problems.Get help,Gary!

Originally Posted by Gary L

You have just discounted many workers from being able to be a bit depressed. or did you mean the prospect of being made unemployed in their case?

Neither,I just rebuked your nonsense assertion that most of Britain is depressed.... in any case most of the population on this Island isn't working anyway so your statement is a load balls from the get go.

Originally Posted by Gary L

I'll ask Marty to check again.

you do that.

---------- Post added at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

what do you think the future hold anyway? whats going to happen when the oil runs out? the gas? what happens when only a few get the power because there is not enough to go around. What happens when all the bees die or the amount of unfarmable land out numbers the farm land? what happens when there is not enough food to feed everyone? The future is pretty bleak no matter what we do today

What if the sky falls in tomorrow?What if a massive meteor hits us tomorrow afternoon? What if the Borg really exist and invade later tonight? What if all the nonsense predictions the eco-fascists and luddites made don't come true and man learns and adapts and thrives for a long time to come?

Questions that no one has answer to and don't matter in the slightest right now... how about that.

Originally Posted by Gary L

They went for the disabled first.
the workers and the non workers looked on.
then they went for the non workers. the workers looked on.

and it all stops there?
nothing for the disabled and the non workers to look on upon?

I invoke Godwin's Law.....

You cheapen the memory of Martin Niemöller, and the time he (and millions of others) spent in Saschenhausen and Dachau, by comparing reducing some benefits with the Holocaust.

Shame on you.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I invoke Godwin's Law.....

You cheapen the memory of Martin Niemöller, and the time he (and millions of others) spent in Saschenhausen and Dachau, by comparing reducing some benefits with the Holocaust.

Shame on you.

Yes,a shame indeed.

The disabled should always be looked after in my opinion, however people who have kids to get money and people who have never worked a day in their life should be hit hard. My wife has a friend who has a number of kids by different people and gets a 4 bedroomed house paid for - how can that be right?

Also with regard to jobs - there is a tomato farm near where I live and a number of polish people work there from 6am till noon and then wait on tables from 6pm until midnight, yet people moan they can't get a job?