Russia has invaded Ukraine

Originally Posted by Paul

Perhaps people are just fed up of paying for a war that isnt ours, rather than being "sympathetic" to Russia.

No, they've been saying this stuff since the start of the war and constantly trying to 'both-sides' the conflict as if they're almost equally morally culpable.

[1andrew1]

Bad news for Putin.

US and Germany to send armoured fighting vehicles to Ukraine

Move comes after decision by France’s Emmanuel Macron to deliver ‘tank killers’

Germany and the US will send armoured fighting vehicles to Ukraine, the White House said, in a move that will deliver a big boost to Kyiv’s offensive capabilities.

The deliveries mark a significant shift for Germany’s chancellor Olaf Scholz, who has been reluctant to provide Ukraine with heavy weaponry amid fears it could drag Nato into the war.

Scholz and Biden in a statement “expressed their common determination to continue to provide the necessary financial, humanitarian, military and diplomatic support to Ukraine for as long as needed”.

As part of this effort, “the United States intends to supply Ukraine with Bradley infantry fighting vehicles, and Germany intends to provide Ukraine with Marder infantry fighting vehicles. Both countries plan to train Ukrainian forces on the respective systems,” the statement said.

Pressure on Scholz to shift position has grown since Emmanuel Macron, president of France, agreed to supply AMX-10s “tank killers” to the Ukrainian armed forces — a move billed by the Élysée Palace as the first delivery of western-made tanks to the country.

“Scholz was forced to act after Macron pressed ahead,” said one person familiar with the discussions.

https://www.ft.com/content/216fecbc-...3-9fa253580b15

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Yeah we preferred it when they covertly influenced our politics buying politicians and interfering with elections or when they poisoned our citizens or assassinated opponents on our streets, I'm glad we are sending Ukraine cash, they're fighting a war so we don't eventually have to imo

Exactly.

[1andrew1]

UK and Poland confirm plans to send modern heavy tanks to Ukraine

Decisions put pressure on Germany and other western nations to follow suit

UK prime minister Rishi Sunak has asked defence secretary Ben Wallace to “work with partners” in the coming weeks to go “further and faster with our support for Ukraine including the provision of tanks”, Downing Street said.

Polish president Andrzej Duda said his government would send a company of German-built Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine’s army “as part of the building of an international coalition”. A company implies around 14 tanks.

The moves by London and Warsaw will ramp up pressure on Berlin to provide tanks of its own to Kyiv and to give the required approval to other governments to re-export German-built vehicles.

https://www.ft.com/content/092b8894-...4-5b21a0c68709

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

https://www.ft.com/content/092b8894-...4-5b21a0c68709

As long as we get paid back, just as we had to pay back for WW1 & WW2, then fine.

Originally Posted by Pierre

As long as we get paid back, just as we had to pay back for WW1 & WW2, then fine.

Lend lease was on a vastly greater scale, and in fact at one point the USA offered to write down a chunk of the debt but HMG felt it was important for our international standing that we pay. We got about £300 billion of hardware from the USA (inflation adjusted to today). So far we have sent about £2 billion to Ukraine.

Regardless, your proposition suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of what’s unfolding in Ukraine now. The European security order will be decided for a generation based on whether Russia eventually overruns Ukraine or is crushed and forced back across its own borders. Russia’s immediate neighbours understand this - the Baltic states’ contributions are far greater, as a percentage of their GDP, than ours and even the United States.

A Ukrainian victory and a humbled Russia is absolutely in our security interests. And in fact a great deal of the kit we’re sending to Ukraine was procured on the assumption that it might, if the worst happened, have to be deployed against Russia anyway. In Ukraine it is being used as designed, even if it’s not UK personnel pulling the trigger.

[ianch99]

Think of it as an insurance premium

[1andrew1]

Germany faffing around whilst Ukraine burns. Even the German Green Party want the tanks supplied to Ukraine.

Germany defies allies’ pressure to send tanks to Ukraine

Berlin says it needs to review stock of Leopards for when agreement is struck

Germany dashed its allies’ hopes that it would approve the dispatch of battle tanks to Ukraine on Friday when a high-profile defence ministers meeting failed to reach an agreement.

Many western countries argue that the German-made Leopard 2 battle tanks would greatly help Kyiv mount a counteroffensive against Russia, but Berlin has yet to agree, despite weeks of intense pressure from its allies.

“[The Germans] have not made a decision on the provision of Leopard tanks,” US defence secretary Lloyd Austin said after the meeting in Ramstein, western Germany.

Berlin’s approval is necessary not only for sending its own Leopards, but also for the transfer of those held by 12 other European nations.

Ukraine says it needs more heavy armour to help it retake territory before Russia, which has mounted a huge mobilisation campaign, can refit and regroup.

Boris Pistorius, Germany’s new defence minister, said his ministry would check the army’s inventories of Leopards to see how many could be provided to Kyiv, as it continues to deliberate whether to release them to Ukraine.

Pistorius also hit back at claims that Berlin was the sole block on sending tanks to Ukraine. “The impression that occasionally arises that there’s a united coalition and Germany is standing in the way is wrong,” he said, adding that there were “many allies” who shared Germany’s view of the tanks issue.

Some German MPs were baffled by Pistorius’ statement. “It’s alarming that it took a new defence minister to check how many Leopard tanks we have, only now, 11 months after Russia attacked Ukraine,” said Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann, head of the German parliament’s defence committee.

https://www.ft.com/content/e17e1724-...a-ac471ed209e7

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Germany faffing around whilst Ukraine burns. Even the German Green Party want the tanks supplied to Ukraine.

I'm not sure I blame them, they've spent 75 years blaming themselves for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers and won't see another war emanate from Germany, the fact this war has already started doesn't mean it can't escalate further without caution.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'm not sure I blame them, they've spent 75 years blaming themselves for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers and won't see another war emanate from Germany, the fact this war has already started doesn't mean it can't escalate further without caution.

There is no escalation path for Putin now except nuclear, and there’s no indication that that’s under any serious consideration in Russia - not least because its only friends in the world (China) have warned it not to, and its most powerful adversary (USA) has spelled out, through diplomatic channels, exactly how rapid and devastating its retaliation would be.

The ‘woah let’s not anger Putin’ line is really wearing thin now. Total war is already underway in Europe and continuing to drip-feed Ukraine just what it needs for defence is only prolonging it.

Germany’s only concern now should be trying to avoid being on the wrong side of history for once.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'm not sure I blame them, they've spent 75 years blaming themselves for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers and won't see another war emanate from Germany, the fact this war has already started doesn't mean it can't escalate further without caution.

The Germans should remember what the Russians were like back in 1945 - as they are now in Ukraine.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'm not sure I blame them, they've spent 75 years blaming themselves for the sins of their fathers and grandfathers and won't see another war emanate from Germany, the fact this war has already started doesn't mean it can't escalate further without caution.

This war has emanated from Russia, not Germany. Enabling Ukraine to expel Russian forces from its territory will enable the war to end, not escalate it.

One lesson learnt from World War II is to not give into bullies.

As Mike Martin has tweeted, allowing Russia to win sends the wrong signal to China and its ambitions for Taiwan. Ukraine must win for the West to be credible.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

Germany’s only concern now should be trying to avoid being on the wrong side of history for once.

I'm sure clever quips like this over 75 years will have only helped them make the right choice

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The Germans should remember what the Russians were like back in 1945 - as they are now in Ukraine.

I'm sure they remember what the rape army did only to well, it was us that turned a blind eye to it

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

This war has emanated from Russia, not Germany. Enabling Ukraine to expel Russian forces from its territory will enable the war to end, not escalate it.

One lesson learnt from World War II is to not give into bullies.

How many tanks do you think are being sent? How many do you believe it'll take?

[1andrew1]

I believe they need a few hundred Leopard tanks. The deliveries at the moment are less about meaningful numbers and more about putting pressure on Germany to allow other countries to send their Leopard tanks to Germany as well as encouraging Germany to do the same.

[richard-john56]

Trade with Russia not for a long long time their regime has to change! Who are these people on MSN when there is a great article for support for Ukraine the thumbs up there are those idiots who vote down?