Russia has invaded Ukraine

Originally Posted by Hugh

The same people who were adamant the Russians didn’t shoot down MH17.

Remember when Russia shot down a plane over Ukraine killing 298 people including 80 children - and then tried to blame everyone and everything apart from Russia….

And on that note…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63637625

MH17: Three guilty as court finds Russia-controlled group downed airliner

A Dutch court has found three men guilty of murder for shooting down a passenger jet over eastern Ukraine in 2014, killing 298 people.

The court found that a Russian-made missile supplied from Russia and fired by an armed group under Russian control brought down flight MH17.

The men - two Russians and one Ukrainian - were found guilty in absentia and sentenced to life in jail. A third Russian was acquitted…

… The judges ruled that it was a deliberate action to bring down a plane, even though the three found guilty had intended to shoot down a military not a civilian aircraft.

- Igor Girkin, the military leader of the so-called Donetsk People's Republic, was convicted of deploying the missile and seeking Russian help
- Sergei Dubinsky was found to have ordered and overseen the transport of the Buk missile launcher
- Leonid Kharchenko was found to have overseen the Buk, acting on Dubinsky's instructions.

Oleg Pulatov was the only one of the four accused to have legal representation at the trial. The judges acquitted him, although they found he knew about the missile.

[jfman]

One can but wonder if the Ukrainians who fired a missile into Poland - albeit they intended to hit something else - will face murder charges.

The Article 4 chat has gone quiet.

[Itshim]

Originally Posted by jfman

One can but wonder if the Ukrainians who fired a missile into Poland - albeit they intended to hit something else - will face murder charges.

The Article 4 chat has gone quiet.

You can't be serious

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Itshim

You can't be serious

Not particularly serious, no. Except on Article 4.

Originally Posted by jfman

Not particularly serious, no. Except on Article 4.

Perhaps they’re consulting NATO Members?

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_49187.htm

Like they did in February…

https://news.sky.com/story/poland-wh...state-12748438

On 24 February 2022, Bulgaria, Czechia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania and Slovakia requested to hold consultations under Article 4 following the Russian invasion of Ukraine

[jfman]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Ukrainian.html

Might be worth invoking Article 4 sooner rather than later if we can’t trust the Zelensky regime to at best establish facts from their own military or at worst tell the truth.

---------- Post added at 02:13 ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

If the US has been looking for a pretext to upgrade Ukraine’s precision missile arsenal with longer-range rockets that can start taking out Russian launchers from further afield, then this is it.

And worryingly if Ukraine was looking for one.

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by jfman

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Ukrainian.html

Might be worth invoking Article 4 sooner rather than later if we can’t trust the Zelensky regime to at best establish facts from their own military or at worst tell the truth.

---------- Post added at 02:13 ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 ----------



And worryingly if Ukraine was looking for one.

I still think there is a chance it was an attempt at escalation and Zelensky knew about it all along. He can not be trusted I tell ya

20 years of dedicated GRU information ops really have helped condition the wider battle space in Putin’s favour. Or parts of it anyway.

Originally Posted by jfman

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Ukrainian.html

Might be worth invoking Article 4 sooner rather than later if we can’t trust the Zelensky regime to at best establish facts from their own military or at worst tell the truth.

---------- Post added at 02:13 ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 ----------



And worryingly if Ukraine was looking for one.

Must be a real dilemma for you - who not to believe less, the USA or Zelensky…

I nearly posted this last night, as it is tangentially interesting. Here it is now anyway.

This is part one of a short essay examining the idea that the Soviet Union did most to win WW2, on the basis that the Eastern Front was more significant. The author (A St Andrews University academic, Philips O’Brien) argues first that there’s a broad correlation between those likely to believe the USSR basically won the war (as opposed to the Western allies), and those who believed Russia would easily win in Ukraine, and to a lesser extent continue to believe that the tide will eventually turn, and/or that Ukraine should negotiate now.

https://open.substack.com/pub/philli...oviet-power-in

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Must be a real dilemma for you - who not to believe less, the USA or Zelensky…

Trust only makes you easier to fool

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

Trust only makes you easier to fool

Being cynical makes you miserable…

You shouldn’t trust blindly, but if you don’t trust anyone at all, that’s just being bitter, negative, and not allowing yourself to be open to others, and allowing others to be open to you.

Trust, but verify…

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Being cynical makes you miserable…

You shouldn’t trust blindly, but if you don’t trust anyone at all, that’s just being bitter, negative, and not allowing yourself to be open to others, and allowing others to be open to you.

Trust, but verify…

You personally can not possibly verify anything you are told about this war. You can look online and read things people say but that verifies nothing

Not trusting people in power is my default. People I have got to know personally get my trust or not depending on their actions. I give everyone a chance.

https://wapo.st/3UOTbRX

[/b] Ukraine says missile parts that landed in Poland may have been Ukrainian[b]

KYIV, Ukraine — So many missiles were fired by Russia and Ukraine during the Russian attack on Ukrainian infrastructure Tuesday that the missile fragments that struck Poland could have been of either Russian or Ukrainian origin, Ukraine air force spokesman Yuriy Ignat said.

In an interview Friday, he described an intense battle during which at least 50 missiles were flying through the air within a matter of minutes near the Polish border in western Ukraine, with at least 20 fired by Russia and 30 fired by Ukrainian air defenses as Russia launched its biggest attack yet on Ukraine’s energy infrastructure. They were among a total of 96 missiles fired by Russia that day, 77 of which were shot down, he said.

“Anything could be the result of this air defense battle,” he said, acknowledging that at least some of the missile parts could have been Ukrainian.

His comments appeared to signal a further softening of Ukraine’s insistence that the missile parts that killed two Polish grain workers were not of Ukrainian origin, despite initial findings by investigators that they belonged to Ukrainian S-300 antiaircraft missiles. President Volodymyr Zelensky said earlier this week that he had “no doubt” the missiles were Russian but later said he couldn’t be “100 percent” sure the missiles weren’t Ukrainian.

Ukraine shot down 15 Russian missiles in the vicinity of the border region, but at least five more struck targets near the Polish border, meaning that Russia launched at least 20 missiles into the area, Ignat said. Ukraine’s air defenses typically fire at least two antiaircraft missiles at incoming ones, “so we can assume at least 30 missiles were launched from our side,” he said.

Ukrainian experts have now joined the Polish and American investigators who are looking into the causes of the explosion that killed two workers at a grain-drying facility in the Polish village of Przewodow, about four miles from the Ukrainian border, according to Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba. He thanked Poland on Twitter for granting access to the Ukrainian investigators.

Whether the missile parts that struck Poland were Ukrainian or Russian is irrelevant, Ignat said, because Russia bears ultimate responsibility for attacking Ukraine.

The one part you can trust is true ;

Russia bears ultimate responsibility for attacking Ukraine.