Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Chris

Nein, but you can have this pineapple, Fritz.

Amusingly, they are now printed by GGP Media in Germany - Karl-Marx-Straße in Pößneck...

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Commando comics called - could they have their out-dated language back, please?

Next it'll be cabbage crates over the briny.

Wing Commander: I want you to lay down your life, Papa. We need a futile gesture at this stage. It will raise the whole tone of the war. Get up in a crate, Papa, pop over to Bremen, take a shufti, don't come back. Goodbye Papa. God, I wish I was going too.

Papa: Goodbye sir - or is it “au revoir"?

Wing Commander: No, Papa...

(thank you, Peter Cook)

This looks like a thoroughly meaningless statement.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5...ost_type=share

The UK and EU have said they are working on creating a "win-win" situation and to expand vaccine supply for all citizens, as the row involving demand for the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab continues.

The UK government and European Commission have just released a joint statement.

“We are all facing the same pandemic and the third wave makes co-operation between the EU and UK even more important," it reads.

"We have been discussing what more we can do to ensure a reciprocally beneficial relationship between the UK and EU on Covid-19.

But I thought the EU’s complaint was the commercial terms of a contract they signed with a private company? And that the new export control measures were not aimed at any particular country (despite the terms of control being a suspiciously accurate description of the UK’s status re vaccines)? Why then are they now seeking a “reciprocally beneficial relationship” with HMG? Are they finally going to admit that they royally fecked up their whole vaccine plan and they need our help to fix it?

[papa smurf]

It didn't take our "EU friends" long to revert back to being the old enemy

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m not being argumentative I’m simply pointing out you are contributing palpable nonsense. Did the Government ignore SAGE advice to lockdown around 11th March? Yes. Did they ignore similar in September? Yes.

You’re quoting one man on Government payroll and giving that greater weight than the scientific advisory groups the Government appointed to give advice. Ministers make decisions based on (or against) that advice at their own discretion.

The medical establishment has been looking in different directions on this, and Whitty advised as he advised. His arguments were the ones taken into account.

SAGE may have thought differently at another point in time, but there were many other factors that had to be taken into account, and not all of them were medical issues. You are over-simplifying this to an extraordinary level to try and win your unfounded argument. But to try to paint a picture that the government was not listening to medical and other professional advice is just fanciful.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

It didn't take our "EU friends" long to revert back to being the old enemy

Hopefully Boris has been busy on the phone pointing out that the EU risks serious long-term difficulties in its vaccine supplies for the short term domestic PR gain of blocking movement of vaccines or components from the EU to the UK. We are cooking a lot of vaccine here, we have a lot more influence over the other major source of the AZ vaccine (India) than the EU does, and we’re not just making AZ here in the UK. Around a third of Valneva’s manufacturing capacity is now in Scotland. A rather important component of the Pfizer vaccine is made in East Yorkshire. If the EU were to try to start a vaccine war it would be a self defeating move.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The medical establishment has been looking in different directions on this, and Whitty advised as he advised. His arguments were the ones taken into account.

SAGE may have thought differently at another point in time, but there were many other factors that had to be taken into account, and not all of them were medical issues. You are over-simplifying this to an extraordinary level to try and win your unfounded argument. But to try to paint a picture that the government was not listening to medical and other professional advice is just fanciful.

Rubbish Old Boy. The Government ignored advice on lockdowns 1 and 2. These are matters of public record.

What is fanciful is the idea that the Chief Medical Officer, or Chief Scientific Adviser, could or would go public and make statements that actively contradict Government policy as agreed by Ministers.

You are greatly over-complicating the situation to allow yourself to claim that the Government have been blameless at all times. Over lockdowns, PPE, billions for Dido Harding’s non-functioning contract tracing... always someone else to blame.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

,...we have a lot more influence over the other major source of the AZ vaccine (India) than the EU does...

Neither of us has much influence over it at the moment!

India 'bans export of AstraZeneca vaccine' as country tackles major Covid outbreak
India has banned vaccine exports from the Serum Institute of India after a spike in infections, with sources claiming no jabs will leave the country until the situation stabilises.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...eneca-23789417

---------- Post added at 19:18 ---------- Previous post was at 19:07 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Rubbish Old Boy. The Government ignored advice on lockdowns 1 and 2. These are matters of public record.

What is fanciful is the idea that the Chief Medical Officer, or Chief Scientific Adviser, could or would go public and make statements that actively contradict Government policy as agreed by Ministers.

You are greatly over-complicating the situation to allow yourself to claim that the Government have been blameless at all times. Over lockdowns, PPE, billions for Dido Harding’s non-functioning contract tracing... always someone else to blame.

Well handled

• Press conferences with medical experts
• Vaccination procurement
• Vaccination pre-procurement and onshoring
• Vaccination roll-out

Badly handled

• Test and trace
• Late lockdowns
• Christmas situation
• PPE procurement
• Discharge of infected patients into nursing homes
• NHS pay rise
• Dominic Cummings fiasco
• Not limiting inbound travel from overseas until fairly recently

I think Boris's performance is improving whilst some other leaders are worsening, eg Angela Merkel and her last-minute Easter extension which the country revolted against.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Rubbish Old Boy. The Government ignored advice on lockdowns 1 and 2. These are matters of public record.

What is fanciful is the idea that the Chief Medical Officer, or Chief Scientific Adviser, could or would go public and make statements that actively contradict Government policy as agreed by Ministers.

You are greatly over-complicating the situation to allow yourself to claim that the Government have been blameless at all times. Over lockdowns, PPE, billions for Dido Harding’s non-functioning contract tracing... always someone else to blame.

I think the government has been careful in its decision making. With hindsight, different decisions could have been made at times, but you could say that of other governments over the world.

This was a unique situation and we were dealing with the unknown. It’s all very well slagging off the government no matter what it does from the comfort of your own armchair, but I shudder to think about what a pig’s ear the other lot would have made of it. Captain Hindsight would have been facing the wrong direction throughout. Corbyn would have consulted Hamas.

At least this government has been decisive, and they have certainly come up trumps with vaccine procurement and the subsequent action to ensure prompt vaccination of the population.

Meanwhile, EU deaths are set to escalate with the start of a new wave that their population is fully exposed to.

[Sephiroth]

I think the government has been careful in its decision making this year.

A year ago, they screwed up royally in not managing the care home situation.

As to the science officers, Boris knows that Witty is trusted by the people and this is what has made Boris become more circumspect.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I think the government has been careful in its decision making. With hindsight, different decisions could have been made at times, but you could say that of other governments over the world.

This was a unique situation and we were dealing with the unknown. It’s all very well slagging off the government no matter what it does from the comfort of your own armchair, but I shudder to think about what a pig’s ear the other lot would have made of it. Captain Hindsight would have been facing the wrong direction throughout. Corbyn would have consulted Hamas.

At least this government has been decisive, and they have certainly come up trumps with vaccine procurement and the subsequent action to ensure prompt vaccination of the population.

Meanwhile, EU deaths are set to escalate with the start of a new wave that their population is fully exposed to.

More tosh Old Boy.

Surely the EU can just "shield the vulnerable"?

I see you've at least dropped that ludicrous tagline from beneath your user name.

The fact other governments could have made better decisions is neither here nor there to your original claim that I debunked - as I say it's a matter of public record - that they ignored SAGE advice on both lockdowns and this had a catastrophic impact modelled as tens of thousands of deaths.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Badly handled

Test and trace

Agreed

[*]Late lockdowns

I don’t think they are at fault for the lockdowns except perhaps for not locking down
London along with the rest of the country.

[*]Christmas situation

if you are referring to the above London situation - agreed. Otherwise don’t know what you mean.

[*]PPE procurement

considering it was a global issue they did alright.

[*]Discharge of infected patients into nursing homes

Agreed

[*]NHS pay rise

considering the hardships many of the citizens of the nation have suffered I think the NHS should have shut the flup up.

[*]Dominic Cummings fiasco

blown out of all proportion by the MSM, he probably should have resigned though.

[*]Not limiting inbound travel from overseas until fairly recently

there have been restrictions on inbound travel since the pandemic started.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by jfman

More tosh Old Boy.

Surely the EU can just "shield the vulnerable"?

I see you've at least dropped that ludicrous tagline from beneath your user name.

The fact other governments could have made better decisions is neither here nor there to your original claim that I debunked - as I say it's a matter of public record - that they ignored SAGE advice on both lockdowns and this had a catastrophic impact modelled as tens of thousands of deaths.

So SAGE become the Government. What a stupid uninformed point of view.

The Government have to take in advice from many areas, attempt to weigh the pro's and con's and proceed accordingly.

Don't forget the SAGE advice was based on modelling since shown inept at best.

The current models for unlocking are not based on seasonal changes or actual vaccine take up so how can they be trusted?

Cases reducing, hospitalisation reducing, deaths reducing P-leasssse.

It has still yet to be proven that lockdowns actually work, they may in the short term to reduce pressure on hospitals but do they work overall?

Many people look to the far east to prove the effectivence of lockdowns/mask wearing without factoring in societal differences.

New Zealand is often brought up as an example but far easier to control the spread than any other 1st world country.

As Society is responsible for everything it does for and on behalf of itself why should any Government need to legislate what that society does?

Originally Posted by pip08456

It has still yet to be proven that lockdowns actually work, they may in the short term to reduce pressure on hospitals but do they work overall?

Define what works means in this context? They clearly work in reducing pressure on hospitals as you say and they work in reducing transmission, cases and deaths as well.