Britain outside the EU

[jfman]

So state aid promotes economic growth? Interesting...

Dido Harding aid gets hee haw.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Nonsense. Germany has consistently spent a great deal more on state aid pre-covid and since. We are nowhere near German levels, so have lots of room to spend more.
Link

2018 EU report
48.6 is just more than a tad greater than 9.2.
Covid related aid

"Nonsense" does not take the debate forwards. The UK Government is definitely applying these rules regardless of any tangential information you may have found.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

So state aid promotes economic growth? Interesting...

Dido Harding aid gets hee haw.

I detect a note of provocation here!

You know as well as I that state aid as seed money for economic output promotes growth. The trick is to select programmes wisely. Energy generation, battery research/design/production, infrastructure - come to mind.

Your (reasonable) snipe at Dido Harding doesn't belong under your question.

[tweetiepooh]

Me thinks there is some posturing on all sides complaining/supporting the change and it's the smaller businesses that will get hit as they don't have the bandwidth the large companies do or the resources to weather the storm as well.

What is also getting problematic is VAT etc. I don't know what happened before but probably something like you buy from (say) Spain, pay Spanish taxes and postage and that's it. Now you should avoid Spanish tax (maybe) but pay UK taxes which since the Spanish company doesn't want to deal with (and why should they) you pay on receipt of goods.
Maybe what's needed is to buy from UK companies who should be able to trade normally and collect any relevant taxes at point of sale.
Maybe HMRC could increase point of taxation so more smaller purchases can pass through freely. Only tax at levels it's actually worth collecting and put exemptions for couriers so they can't gouge end point customers. Or at least make it easier for them so their costs aren't hugely increased.

I really am sure that something can be worked out but it needs to be quick and needs to put in allowances for smaller businesses and especially those trading in "fresh stuff".

It's the same rules for if you were to buy something from the United States isn't it? I don't get the stories of people being 'surprised' they have to pay fees and taxes on what they've purchased in the EU, we knew this was coming.

It's the same nothing story as these 'I've got to do more paperwork to sell to the EU!?!!' stories. Yes! Well done. Where have you been for the last 4 years.

---------- Post added at 13:09 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

Maybe HMRC could increase point of taxation so more smaller purchases can pass through freely. Only tax at levels it's actually worth collecting and put exemptions for couriers so they can't gouge end point customers. Or at least make it easier for them so their costs aren't hugely increased.

If you get that wrong then you risk undercutting British sellers and lose VAT on purchases that would otherwise have been made here. Especially on countries that don't charge a tax on online purchases. I.E Let's say they increase to £2,000 then if I wanted an iPad then it's a 20% discount for buying from America even before their already cheaper prices. Obviously some of that would be offset by higher shipping costs.

---------- Post added at 13:09 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

Maybe HMRC could increase point of taxation so more smaller purchases can pass through freely. Only tax at levels it's actually worth collecting and put exemptions for couriers so they can't gouge end point customers. Or at least make it easier for them so their costs aren't hugely increased.

If you get that wrong then you risk undercutting British sellers and lose VAT on purchases that would otherwise have been made here. Especially on countries that don't charge a tax on online purchases. I.E Let's say they increase to £2,000 then if I wanted an iPad then it's a 20% discount for buying from America even before their already cheaper prices. Obviously some of that would be offset by higher shipping costs.

[nomadking]

I thought the EU had already put in place rules that said the VAT had to be directed to the destination country? Previously something bought in France, by somebody in the UK, had to pay UK VAT. EU prices should now be VAT free, with UK VAT applied at entry to the UK. Should be no, or little price difference.
Link

For EU-based companies, VAT is chargeable on most sales and purchases of goods within the EU. In such cases, VAT is charged and due in the EU country where the goods are consumed by the final consumer. Likewise, VAT is charged on services at the time they are carried out in each EU country.
VAT isn't charged on exports of goods to countries outside the EU. In these cases, VAT is charged and due in the country of import and you don't need to declare any VAT as an exporter. However, when exporting goods you will need to provide documentation as proof that the goods were transported outside the EU. Such proof could be provided by presenting a copy of an invoice, a transportation document or an import customs record to your tax authorities.
You will need to provide this proof to be able to fully deduct any receivable VAT that you have paid in a previous related transaction leading up to the export. Insufficient documentation may mean you won't have the right to a VAT reimbursement when exporting goods.

Are people looking at EU prices that now exclude VAT, and not being aware that the VAT is due later?

I just checked an EU based site I used to order from and the prices are the same even after I get to the last stage of the order.

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:19 ----------

In some cases it might be hard to tell though because I don't know if they're handling that for me?

[jfman]

Is it not more likely that the business in the EU will charge their usual price, not pay the VAT in their country (as it left the EU) and pocket the difference themselves?

[tweetiepooh]

But the level is at around £140 so on nett price £28 VAT at 20%. How much does it cost to collect that £28? There must be a point at which the amount collected is greater than the cost of collection.

But there is all the problems as you mentioned of source countries not taxing at all (but that's their loss). The problems include where the UK tax is collected (if at all) and ensuring that cost is know to the purchaser at time of purchase.

Buying from the US (or anywhere outside EU) always required collecting the tax somewhere if not collected at point of sale. Could be it be added to the carriage charge if the seller passes all that on to the carrier and the carrier pays the relevant amount to HMRC? But then how to prevent carrier adding silly charges to cover that, but if big enough they should already have mechanisms in place to pay tax.

I just bought some new pans, French. The best buy originally was from a Dutch company that had free postage over £50. Now carriage is £11. I bought from (I think) a UK company that is cheaper but charges postage under £100. The total cost of items from the Netherlands was cheaper because pans cam to just over £50, but now cheaper the other way round. Even with VAT prices where cheaper from second company.

It's all a mess and not helped with some folk getting in the way where it really shouldn't happen. I believe it will get sorted out but something needs to happen to help those smaller traders (especially fresh stuff) keep going until it all is.

As consumers we often can "see the way" because we are making small, individual transactions. I really can't see why things are more difficult now other than obstacles being put in the way. We could have a free trade agreement and let goods move as they always have done. What are either side afraid of that couldn't have already been a problem as part of the EU as far as moving stuff around goes?

[1andrew1]

Some information here on the changes

The loss of Distance Selling thresholds for UK e-commerce sellers of goods to EU consumers. Goods are now be subject to import VAT, and UK sellers will have to consider VAT registering in Europe immediately. Similarly, EU e-commerce sellers may now need to register immediately for UK VAT if they have been selling to UK consumers under the £70,000 threshold.
Any UK business with a foreign VAT registration in the EU may now face the obligation to appoint a special VAT fiscal representative. This applies in 19 of the 27 EU states. These agents hold direct liablity for any unpaid VAT, and therefore require cash deposits or bank guarantees in exchange.

The scrapping of the UK £15 low-value consignment stock relief which exempts imports of goods (including from the rest of EU after Brexit) from VAT. Instead, for goods at £135 or below, sellers or their postal service have to declare and pay to HMRC via a new, quarterly filing, VAT charged at the point-of-sale.

For UK sellers of digital services to EU consumers, the UK is no longer be a member of the EU Mini One-Stop-Shop single VAT return scheme. UK sellers of electronic, broadcast or telecoms services to consumers will therefore have register in any other EU state, as a non-Union businesses, to continue to file their VAT declarations for EU e-service sales. EU sellers into the UK have to now register with the UK’s HMRC for the same declaration. Any non-EU business which used the UK MOSS registration now has to reregister for MOSS in the EU and separately in the UK under a regular VAT return.

There are limited changes on the Brexit VAT on services for B2B transactions after the UK leaves the EU VAT regime. The reverse charge will still apply. In the future, the UK may deviate from some of the use and enjoyment rules. There are changes on certain cross-border B2C services to EU consumers (and vice-a-versa).

UK businesses incurring EU VAT on travel, hotel or other expenses are no longer be able to use the 8thDirective online VAT reclaim system operated via HMRC. Instead, they must use the 13th Directive paper-based reclaim process. This requires individual claims to each country where there is a VAT claim. Last UK claims via the 8th Directive will be for the final quarter of 2020.

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/v...dec-20200.html

It seems to me that there are opportunities here for UK based businesses to capitalise where the additional complexity has disincentivized EU businesses to sell into the UK.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

It seems to me that there are opportunities here for UK based businesses to capitalise where the additional complexity has disincentivized EU businesses to sell into the UK.

Are you trying to say buy British

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Damien

I just checked an EU based site I used to order from and the prices are the same even after I get to the last stage of the order.

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:19 ----------

In some cases it might be hard to tell though because I don't know if they're handling that for me?

I've been hearing about people that have ordered and paid for goods, but now the sellers say they won't release them until other charges are paid that arose as a result of Brexit. These charges weren't mentioned on the websites or asked for at the time the orders were placed.

If you need to use this site again to place an order it would be interesting to hear if you are then asked for more money before the goods are released.

Edit: Found this:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...rs-have-to-pay

Originally Posted by papa smurf

Are you trying to say buy British

Yup

We definitely should, for all sorts of reasons related to the health of our own economy, because it’s only our own economy that funds essential government services. It’s also environmentally questionable to have complex supply chains snaking all over Europe, with the fuel burning required to move components and finished products back and forth.

[RichardCoulter]

UK accused of 'petty behaviour' over EU diplomat:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55753669