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Old 18-08-2022, 16:11   #61
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
So to cherry pick on one thing here, if a man undergoes gender reassignment surgery, are they male or female ? If the answer is male, and an individual expressed this in a workplace, then that individual would be out on their arse quick smart... considering gender reassignment is a protected characteristic

Id argue that a truly tolerant society is one whereby people are open to their view of the world changing and accept that sometimes their inherent beliefs MAY need to change.
If you genuinely have gender dysmorphia (which is mental condition) and ultimately have surgery (which should be after years of counselling after all other options are exhausted and certainly only when you are adult). You are still biologically male, but polite society should accept you as female. This btw is an extremely tiny number of people.

What has been conflated now is that men that have a dressing up fetish, we used to call transvestites, are demanding to be called by female pronouns, wanting access to female spaces. They are intact males with no intention of losing their male genitalia. This is what needs to be checked.

Then of course you have the whole spectrum of other manufactured identities, so people can feel special and privileged white kids can feel like their in an oppressed minority group.

---------- Post added at 15:11 ---------- Previous post was at 15:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Turn it around though. If you got into an intimate relationship with someone who at the point it began to turn intimate turned out to be the opposite of what you expected, are you intolerant for breaking off the relationship, even though by implication you’re refusing to affirm the gender they presented to you?
No.
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Old 18-08-2022, 16:14   #62
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Is this case though would you use the pronouns of their new gender?

Transmen and Transwomen by far represent the bulk of people who believe their gender doesn't match their biological sex. I know there are people who believe that there are other genders but these are a small minority within a minority.
Well I’ll let you into a secret - I have an acquaintance (I’d call friend, but not close) who is transitioning; taking hormones and changed name. No longer a she. And yes, I use ‘his’ new name and refer to him as ‘he’ most of the time, though it depends on context. Legally she is still female and her birth certificate still has her given name on it.

This individual is under proper medical care and insisting on referring to them by their chromosomally-determined sex would be socially and psychologically unhelpful.

Tolerance and respect isn’t two dimensional. A bit of contextual wisdom is required, and there is always going to be a grey area that needs careful navigation. However, I am yet to come across a convincing reason why I should affirm the critical theory that underlies gender studies by choosing to affirm what appears to me to be a fiction or to indulge individuals who believe their gender is theirs to choose from a seemingly infinite continuum.
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Old 18-08-2022, 16:18   #63
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Therein lies the devilish detail, though as a starting point I would refer back to my comments on gender dysphoria from earlier. It is a thing. It is a serious psychological condition and current medical opinion is that in some cases the best solution is to surgically alter the patient’s body to (superficially) represent the sex they believe they should have been born with. This is then followed up by a legal recognition, though in UK law you still only have the choice of male and female. It seems unlikely that there will ever be legal recognition of any of the other postulated gender states when academics are still arguing over exactly what they might be, and how many there are.

As I also said earlier, I’m not going out of my way to cause offence. If someone presents to me as a she, then that’s how I’ll know them - apart from anything else I have no other frame of reference by which I could make a different decision.

Turn it around though. If you got into an intimate relationship with someone who at the point it began to turn intimate turned out to be the opposite of what you expected, are you intolerant for breaking off the relationship, even though by implication you’re refusing to affirm the gender they presented to you?
So to take you back to this comment.

'I speak English; I refer to individuals as ‘he’ or ‘she’. This is based on a prima facie determination of an individual’s biological sex. That is normal and has been so for millennia.'

A male has gender reassignment surgery and identifies as she/her - to you is that person male or female? Based on your statement I believe that privately you would refer to them as male. However, I suspect publicly in a situation where your career (or something else that could have negative financial or social impact) was potentially at risk you would refer to them as female.

No evidence for the above, and placing no judgement on the above either.


regarding the latter I'm not sure it holds the same relevance, As i understand it you're talking about deception in an attempt to obtain something ?

There have been as I'm sure you're aware legal cases regarding similar scenarios.

---------- Post added at 15:18 ---------- Previous post was at 15:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
If you genuinely have gender dysmorphia (which is mental condition) and ultimately have surgery (which should be after years of counselling after all other options are exhausted and certainly only when you are adult). You are still biologically male, but polite society should accept you as female. This btw is an extremely tiny number of people.

What has been conflated now is that men that have a dressing up fetish, we used to call transvestites, are demanding to be called by female pronouns, wanting access to female spaces. They are intact males with no intention of losing their male genitalia. This is what needs to be checked.

Then of course you have the whole spectrum of other manufactured identities, so people can feel special and privileged white kids can feel like their in an oppressed minority group.

---------- Post added at 15:11 ---------- Previous post was at 15:08 ----------



No.
What female spaces are they demanding access to?
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Old 18-08-2022, 16:24   #64
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
So to take you back to this comment.

'I speak English; I refer to individuals as ‘he’ or ‘she’. This is based on a prima facie determination of an individual’s biological sex. That is normal and has been so for millennia.'

A male has gender reassignment surgery and identifies as she/her - to you is that person male or female? Based on your statement I believe that privately you would refer to them as male. However, I suspect publicly in a situation where your career (or something else that could have negative financial or social impact) was potentially at risk you would refer to them as female.

No evidence for the above, and placing no judgement on the above either.


regarding the latter I'm not sure it holds the same relevance, As i understand it you're talking about deception in an attempt to obtain something ?

There have been as I'm sure you're aware legal cases regarding similar scenarios.
If my career was at risk for refusing to affirm a personally selected gender, my employer would be hearing from a human rights lawyer. Compelled speech is illegal. . To my knowledge, to date, all British cases of dismissal, whether direct or constructive, have been lost by employers if not at tribunal then on appeal, on that very point.

If someone has transitioned and obtained legal recognition, then there’s nothing inconsistent in using legally assigned terms to refer to them, whilst also questioning philosophically whether a legal statement is necessarily a true statement. All of us believe what we believe about the world, but most of us are polite enough to pick and choose when we attempt to articulate those beliefs.

Is an ‘intact male’ (to use Pierre’s term), self-affirming as female and not in a position of a gender recognition certificate, obtaining something by deception if they gain access to a female-only space or service?
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Old 18-08-2022, 17:40   #65
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
What female spaces are they demanding access to?
Toilets, changing rooms, shelters, hospital wards, specific female swimming sessions………hell I’ll even throw in female sports.
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Old 18-08-2022, 18:50   #66
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
Doesn't this just come down to acceptance, if Eddie Izzard wants to use the pronouns she/her then so what? individuals might not agree with it but there is zero cost to respecting someone's wishes.
Eddie at one stage was saying they are genderfluid so might one day choose to be he/him and the next she/her. Should we really pander to that type of stuff on the whim of someone which makes it unnecessarily awkward for everyone else?

Genderfluid is one of those I put down to either confused, attention seeking or thinking they are cool with that label.

---------- Post added at 17:35 ---------- Previous post was at 17:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
A male has gender reassignment surgery and identifies as she/her - to you is that person male or female? Based on your statement I believe that privately you would refer to them as male. However, I suspect publicly in a situation where your career (or something else that could have negative financial or social impact) was potentially at risk you would refer to them as female.
Its a real problem in some physical sports where a man transitions to a woman and wants to compete despite having a huge muscle advantage over others that years of more testosterone and such has given them.

Police are spending so much time painting the cars rainbow coloured and forces telling their staff not to use sir or madam and to use LBTQ+ friendly terms instead while 70% of met officers have not made an arrest in the last month and most robberies do not even get investigated so are unsolved.

Worrying about gender pronouns and virtue signalling instead of working on crimes.

---------- Post added at 17:50 ---------- Previous post was at 17:35 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Well I’ll let you into a secret - I have an acquaintance (I’d call friend, but not close) who is transitioning; taking hormones and changed name. No longer a she. And yes, I use ‘his’ new name and refer to him as ‘he’ most of the time, though it depends on context. Legally she is still female and her birth certificate still has her given name on it.
I have an acquaintance who transitioned to become a her. I could probably say friend as they sometimes message me to meet up for a pint and we spoke about their transition before it happened and they sent me pictures while in the hospital having the surgical part too.

Of course I respect their choice. I feel anyone should be able to do whatever they want or put whatever they want in their body if its not affecting anyone else.

Speaking with them before and after, I'm not convinced they did it for what people might consider the right reasons. They not once told me they felt like they were in the wrong body/ felt feminine although its possible they just didn't say this to me. The relationship they have with their boyfriend is a very...risk/kink/hard to describe without going in to a lot of detail but there was a thrill in doing things in their relationship that was extreme. I get the feeling it was more to do with that and maybe a bit of being on the spectrum that lead to it all.

Obviously anyone going for surgery is going to have nerves but they were having second thoughts about right up until the day they went in for surgery, despite all the years it took to get there and the hormone side of it. Even after it was done and there was no going back, they wondered if they had done the right thing.

The point being, not everyone is what you would think 100% sure that transitioning is what they want, even if they have fantasised about it for a long time and made a good for years of their life about it.
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Old 18-08-2022, 23:16   #67
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by Maggy View Post
No it just shows up YOUR prejudices.

---------- Post added at 08:51 ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 ----------



Prejudiced much
?
I couldn't care less what people want to pretend to be, that is on them, however, don't insist the rest of us suspend science and reality to cater to your confusion or illusions. I refuse to call a person with a penis a woman or a person with a vagina a man because they are not. If they chose to dress as the opposite, go for it, but don't make me repeat a lie to make you feel better. Similarly, a person cannot be two people at the same time, and there is no "them"; instead, there is a person with perception issues. This is not judgemental, personal, or transphobic, but merely reality. I cannot choose to identify as a dalmatian dog, a pine tree, Donald Trump, or an alien, as it is both untrue and absurdly ridiculous.
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Old 19-08-2022, 00:20   #68
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Re: Pronouns

This is a topic coming up increasingly more everywhere I g, I'm umm quite sceptical of all this and I've still yet to pin down where it began or necessarily came from. Transsexuals or as I refer the OG "trans" has been an accepted fact or reality for over 20 years now (though the GRA became law in 2004). They've been in the "community" despite being a very distinct group of their own within the original initialism. LGB was about sexuality, the T was about sex and transitioning to the opposite (putting biological reality aside for a moment)....again so far so clear.

So for most of my adult life before I got to 30, there was the likes of me a gay man, lesbian women, bisexual men and women, transsexual men and women. The latter were a settled issue, they were relatively few in number but had a series of rights afforded to them which I believe are correct and fair....with some exemptions of course....and the transsexuals I know are understanding of that (access to some womens spaces and sports). Now the transsexuals I know got their GRC...so far so good and the protections with that.

There was non of this pro noun business, it was simple he/she/her/him.

Then out of nowhere a load of others jumped on the "trans" bit and expanded the meaning or as I think *******ised it to the point said OG transsexuals are now having to fight for their rights again (even though previously settled) because of the gender ideology movement. Those that are non binary or genderfluid etc are not really trans...that always belonged to transsexuals whom as mentioned already here have been diagnosed with GD and sort the appropriate treatment for themselves.

Now anyone can identify as trans, you put on a frock, die your hair blue and you can call yourself trans.....

So some on here think some of us are precious about language, well language has a purpose, some new language comes into common parlance but it should not replace language which has been accepted for centuries and defines boundaries.

If you allow the expansion of a specific word is loses its meaning and becomes hard to define or draft in law. Take trans....look what has happened to it. Now homosexuality despite for decades if not centuries has meant same sex attraction...but now you have Stonewall telling the world and anyone signed up to their indoctrination programme that it means "same gender attraction".

Its fine to acknowledge someones pro nouns and if you feel so obliging use them, but you shouldn't be forced to. That doesn't mean one should use their former pro nouns but people on here are smart enough to figure a way round that.

I refuse to use any pro nouns in any email signature etc and when I introduce myself they get my name, not my a/s/l or whatever identity I'm seemingly connected to. The gender ideology movement and associated trans activists are the reason acceptance of the so called LGBT+ community is falling in the western world IMHO. So much so there is a grass roots movement to uncouple LGB from the T+.

I believe biological sex is immutable, you are not assigned it at birth, you are it no ifs or buts. But if we accept at at large, pro nouns and de facto gender ideology then we will cease to be able to define or protect in law the charisteristics of the equality act.

The HRA guarrantees freedom of expression, say or identify how you want, that does not entitle you to additional rights. But the protected characteristics of the Equality Act and associated examptions in that law arguably means it takes precendence due to its specificity, which should not change at all.

Ideology always starts with language......
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Old 19-08-2022, 10:29   #69
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Re: Pronouns

Quote:
I believe biological sex is immutable, you are not assigned it at birth, you are it no ifs or buts.
You may (or may not) find this informative.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelse...h=5641c24c76b9

tl:dr - it’s not that simple…
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Old 19-08-2022, 10:46   #70
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
You may (or may not) find this informative.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelse...h=5641c24c76b9

tl:dr - it’s not that simple…
Actually it is - even in cases of androgen insensitivity, the individual is genetically male while not properly developing as such. Something that should happen, does not, because of a clinical disorder, not because biological sex is a myth.

Biology is the fatal flaw in gender theory and unsurprisingly I have seen numerous attempts like this one to undermine it. But all of them amount to obfuscation and claims that black is white.
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Old 19-08-2022, 11:01   #71
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Re: Pronouns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
You may (or may not) find this informative.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelse...h=5641c24c76b9

tl:dr - it’s not that simple…
I prefer to take on board Dr Robert Winston's view, rather than some internet hack.

https://youtu.be/pFHVV_GcykI

You are male or female right down to every cell in your body.

Now, there will of course be exceptional cases, there always is.

But as I heard quoted many times when someone tries to pull out a "gotcha" moment with intersex examples etc

"there are people born in the world with only one leg, that doesn't mean that the human race is not a bipedal species"
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Old 19-08-2022, 12:13   #72
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I prefer to take on board Dr Robert Winston's view, rather than some internet hack.

https://youtu.be/pFHVV_GcykI

You are male or female right down to every cell in your body.

Now, there will of course be exceptional cases, there always is.

But as I heard quoted many times when someone tries to pull out a "gotcha" moment with intersex examples etc

"there are people born in the world with only one leg, that doesn't mean that the human race is not a bipedal species"
you are right. But, this is where semantics or perspective comes into play. The average number of legs in the world for the human race is 1.97 therefore by it's very meaning we are not a bipedal race.

It is by intention we should be a bipedal race. However circumstance beyond our control mean that's not possible in all cases.
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Old 19-08-2022, 12:16   #73
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
you are right. But, this is where semantics or perspective comes into play. The average number of legs in the world for the human race is 1.97 therefore by it's very meaning we are not a bipedal race.
Which is why, by the time you sit GCSE maths, you’re told about the limitations of mean average and are introduced to other statistical tools, like the modal average which in this case is 2.
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Old 19-08-2022, 12:18   #74
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Re: Pronouns

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Which is why, by the time you sit GCSE maths, you’re told about the limitations of mean average and are introduced to other statistical tools, like the modal average which in this case is 2.
Of course but modal average wasn't specified in the original statement. like i said semantics or perspective
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Old 19-08-2022, 12:29   #75
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Re: Pronouns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
You may (or may not) find this informative.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelse...h=5641c24c76b9

tl:dr - it’s not that simple…
It is that simple, even those with DSD or what used to be called intersex are born male or female in the majority of circumstances. Thats where Assigned Male/Female at Birth was originally used, those instances where the sex was difficult to determine. AFAB/AMAB was never meant to be used in the general population as their sex was already determined (in the womb).

So it is immutable, you can't change your biological sex. This is not to say those who experience GD shouldn't get treatment and a broadbased one at that. I have immense sympathy for someone who is suffering with GD, we should be accommodating of that and encourage them to seek the treatment and support they need.

It used to be the understanding that those who underwent transitioning had surgery especially in the MTF sense, thus at least appearance wise reducing the perceived risk to other women. There wasn't much issue around this, hence why I suggested or said it was settled. Now the current situation has brought all that into question, why?

I certainly believe you can transition your identity to the opposite sex and live as that socially. However that still doesn't change the fact your body is still biologically what it was/is, there is no escaping that. Again though we should treat people as they wish to be treated, with respect, kindness and dignity. We can do that without feeling like we are betraying our beliefs or views, some will indulge more than others, others less so.
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