Brexit

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

One peccadillo does not make him a liar.

The body language in the interview to me suggests otherwise. But as he's a friend of yours I accept that you know him better so let's agree to disagree on this.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You once again go well OTT on Redwood.

He was elected in 1987 - are you certain he wanted to push a skewed ideology? He wants a sovereign UK - hardly a skewed ideology. eign that rubbish in, please.

Criticising anyone who want to risk the country's future who is driven by a faith-based ideology is not OTT, it is self preservation.

Show me the evidential, fact-based consensus that a No Deal brexit does not risk my children's future and we can have a debate. Until then, he is an idiot betraying his constituency, party and country.

Our elected representatives should make decisions based on reasoned, objective fact-based conclusions and not what they fantasise to be their free market, low tax, capitalist utopia.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Criticising anyone who want to risk the country's future who is driven by a faith-based ideology is not OTT, it is self preservation.

Show me the evidential, fact-based consensus that a No Deal brexit does not risk my children's future and we can have a debate. Until then, he is an idiot betraying his constituency, party and country.

Our elected representatives should make decisions based on reasoned, objective fact-based conclusions and not what they fantasise to be their free market, low tax, capitalist utopia.

There are a number of problems with this.

First of all, you’re asking him to prove a negative. The assertion is that No Deal Brexit is damaging and it is for those who believe it to make their case.

Second, if you think politics is merely a matter of drawing conclusions based on facts then you’ve been missing the point, and to be honest I’m curious how you would attempt explain the existence of at least three major parties, with three enormously different policy platforms, in the same Commons chamber.

Moral and ideological considerations are always at play in policy formation, as well they should be. There are no facts that exist in isolation and weighing them, and assigning importance to them, is a task for moral beings, not statistical machines.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Show me the evidential, fact-based consensus that a No Deal brexit does not risk my children's future and we can have a debate. Until then, he is an idiot betraying his constituency, party and country.

Show me factually that staying in will not be to the detriment of my children’s future. You can’t because .....you can’t.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Not his job, he is not part of the Government. His duties as an MP are clear and distinct ..

He stood for election with a mandate to leave the EU. So in your opinion, it's ok to disregard that manifesto ciommitment? Of couse not, that would be the politics of deception.

So of course it was his job.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

He stood for election with a mandate to leave the EU. So in your opinion, it's ok to disregard that manifesto ciommitment? Of couse not, that would be the politics of deception.

So of course it was his job.

He voted against the right for EU citizens to remain. By your rules, this makes him part of the politics of deception.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

There are a number of problems with this.

First of all, you’re asking him to prove a negative. The assertion is that No Deal Brexit is damaging and it is for those who believe it to make their case.

Second, if you think politics is merely a matter of drawing conclusions based on facts then you’ve been missing the point, and to be honest I’m curious how you would attempt explain the existence of at least three major parties, with three enormously different policy platforms, in the same Commons chamber.

Moral and ideological considerations are always at play in policy formation, as well they should be. There are no facts that exist in isolation and weighing them, and assigning importance to them, is a task for moral beings, not statistical machines.

You are missing the point here. I am not making an arbitrary definition of the machinery of politics and how decisions are made, strategy formed, etc.

The point is this, and it has always been the point: we are not betting on the 3:30 at Kempton. We are deciding the future of the country and the generations that will inherit it. Some may think that some arm waving conclusions that "we will be fine" suffices. I, and many others, do not.

If you want to jump into the void show, beyond reasonable doubt, why it is not a risk. If you can't, then you have all your work ahead of you. You quite rightly assert that this process is a task for "moral beings" ...

---------- Post added at 08:45 ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

He stood for election with a mandate to leave the EU. So in your opinion, it's ok to disregard that manifesto ciommitment? Of couse not, that would be the politics of deception.

So of course it was his job.

Can you show me where this manifesto promises to leave with No Deal? Here you go:

2017 Conservative Party Manifesto

TL;DR

The best possible deal for Britain as we leave the European Union delivered by a smooth, orderly Brexit.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Can you show me where this manifesto promises to leave with No Deal? Here you go:

2017 Conservative Party Manifesto

TL;DR

In the opinion of most leavers, it is perfectly possible to leave in an orderly fashion without a deal.

As to an earlier post, you cannot actually prove to sceptics such as your good self that a no-deal Brexit would lead to prosperity for this country because remainers just cannot envisage the many opportunities that are out there for businessmen to take advantage of. The EU is just one part of the world with whom we can do business. We will continue to trade with the EU and it makes sense for both sides to do so. But following Brexit we will have many additional opportunities that we can grasp. We are the fifth biggest economy in the world and as such we are in an excellent position to forge new trading arrangements.

You are failing to factor into your calculations the concern that the EU will drag us down with it if we do not break free of its apron strings now. I really do not understand this view remainers have that the EU is such a good place to be. It is expensive to belong to and its advantages are too few. The problems it faces in the future, particularly with the smaller countries of the EU and their lack of ability to withstand the next global downturn and the increasing weight of legislation and bureaucracy on businesses may be something you are prepared to ignore due to the benefit you get from the holiday freedoms you enjoy, but it is too high a price to pay in my book.

What private organisation would you trust that couldn't even get its financial books agreed by the auditors? The EU is as inefficient as it is debilitating and the sooner we leave, the better.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

In the opinion of most leavers, it is perfectly possible to leave in an orderly fashion without a deal.

Do you have a source for this?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Do you have a source for this?

This may assist you.

https://brexitcentral.com/managed-no...ariffs-quotas/

I know a lot of Brexiteers (as well as remainers, I might add) and all of them take the view that the 'disruption' that has been publicised is all part of project fear and that accommodations could be made in the early days to prevent mutual inconvenience. A few of them think there may be some disruption in the early days, but they only say that because they have been influenced by the scaremongering on the remainer side of the argument.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Show me factually that staying in will not be to the detriment of my children’s future. You can’t because .....you can’t.

I don't know how old your children are but I assume they are literally children..

Freedom of movement allows anyone, with a few exceptions, including the young to live and work in another country, broadening their horizons, learning new skills and increasing their employability. Want some funding? How about the Erasmus+ program?

BREAKING: The Brexit Party sky rockets and trounces Labour in latest voting intentions in You Gov poll:

European Parliament voting intention:

BREX: 27%
LAB: 22%
CON: 15%
GRN: 10%
LDEM: 9%
UKIP: 7%
CHUK: 6%

via @YouGov, 15 - 16 Apr

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

This may assist you.

https://brexitcentral.com/managed-no...ariffs-quotas/

I know a lot of Brexiteers (as well as remainers, I might add) and all of them take the view that the 'disruption' that has been publicised is all part of project fear and that accommodations could be made in the early days to prevent mutual inconvenience. A few of them think there may be some disruption in the early days, but they only say that because they have been influenced by the scaremongering on the remainer side of the argument.

Alas, it doesn't assist your argument. You said "In the opinion of most leavers, it is perfectly possible to leave in an orderly fashion without a deal."
There is nothing in that article to support your statement.

---------- Post added at 13:21 ---------- Previous post was at 13:19 ----------

Originally Posted by Mick

BREAKING: The Brexit Party sky rockets and trounces Labour in latest voting intentions in You Gov poll:

European Parliament voting intention:

BREX: 27%
LAB: 22%
CON: 15%
GRN: 10%
LDEM: 9%
UKIP: 7%
CHUK: 6%

via @YouGov, 15 - 16 Apr

As I've said before, it's a great name for a party, a clear offer to voters and he should never, ever be under estimated. A Sky News article makes the same point in more depth.
https://news.sky.com/story/labour-an...-real-11695821

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

If you want to jump into the void show, beyond reasonable doubt, why it is not a risk.

Wow, if we lived by that we’d accomplish nothing.

Everyday in life is a risk.

People have looked at Brexit and believe it is worth the risk.

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:38 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I don't know how old your children are but I assume they are literally children..

Freedom of movement allows anyone, with a few exceptions, including the young to live and work in another country, broadening their horizons, learning new skills and increasing their employability. Want some funding? How about the Erasmus+ program?

That didn’t answer the question, but it’s OK because I know you can’t answer the question, because you’re not a fortune teller.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Mick

BREAKING: The Brexit Party sky rockets and trounces Labour in latest voting intentions in You Gov poll:

European Parliament voting intention:

BREX: 27%
LAB: 22%
CON: 15%
GRN: 10%
LDEM: 9%
UKIP: 7%
CHUK: 6%

via @YouGov, 15 - 16 Apr

As I expected! But this poll will be rubbished by those pesky remainders who deny the vote of the referendum.

If we have to fight the European elections, the current parties in Parliament will regret it.