Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[popper]

Originally Posted by Blackbeak

Your gut feeling is wrong.

Full disclaimer:

I have no association with Phorm, BT or any interest in getting work in this manner. I know people in BT working in web analytics and data mining, I don't know anyone at Phorm. I am interested in data mining and am part of a number of different organisations, online groups and am regarded by many as an expert in web analytics, marketing and data analysis.

I work for a company called Trainers' House Satama as a consultant and I am based in Helsinki Finland.

I don't need to tout for work because the demand for my skills is very high due to the lack of people in my line of work.

I didn't intend to attract a whole new set of visitors to my site by writing my post, it was simply picked up by someone, posted here and then I got a whole lot of comments on my site. I intended to open a debate with my peers and regular Blackbeak readers whom have so far not commented though it is a weekend and probably most of them have better things to do than read my blog.

I know what can and can't be extracted from a lot of different web analytics tools. I am writing this looking at a browser tool (the Google Toolbar) that allows Google to see every website I visit. They know everything about my web browsing habits. And I don't care. Because i know how difficult it would be to pinpoint me as an individual and figure out who I am. I also know that it would be a complete WASTE OF THEIR TIME to do so. What's the point of knowing one persons behavior?

So to continue this debate here, please tell me the value of Phorm or BT to know the browsing habits of individuals? What business reason would they have for that? Think about it. The value comes from the aggregation of the data not from being to tell what you or I are doing individually.

your doing quite well , you have also got Richard Clayton
posting to your blog

we have thought about it and in great detail, and funny enough i was commenting on your blog about this very subject just now, but the browser crashed and i lost the text there before i hit send, ill recreate it and continue here...

(Hint) i cant work out how to bold and underline in your Blog SW anyway


"I work for a company called Trainers' House Satama as a consultant and I am based in Helsinki Finland."

again ,fair enough, given your location, i will assume you lived there a while and dont necessarily know the Uk practices so well....

Blackbeak on His Blog said:
"Hitwise, ... and others have been collecting data from ISPs for years.

The manner in which they have used the information is different, they aren’t using it to specifically serve ads to people, they use it to show Internet demographical and behavioral patterns but their panel sizes are similar and similar data is aggregated.."

Ohh Yes "HitWise" and their massive collection of private data collected without consent of the Owners of that data For Commercial Gain.

"HitWise" and their Unlawful " derivative works" data,collected without consent, are now Owned By non Other than the Uk's No1 Credit Reference Agency (1 of the 3 main CRA's in the Uk) Experian.

the very same CRA that the Banks,Building sociaties and Broadband companies, (the so called 3B's) that keep the Uks data flowing into the corporate machine.

they use the CRAs to check on every single person's credit files, and they also feed the CRA's with Your personal data to get a better Discount on access to these Data records.

theres one single perfect example of why its in their interests to know the browsing habits of individuals ,they profit Directly from your unique and Automatically copyrighted data ,without paying you a single penny for the use of that data for a commercial enterprise, and they get to fill up their data bases to sell to other partys for commercial profit, commercial Piracy By any other name....

but it gets better from your Business Model perspective, but you do understand, it's to everyone elses detriment, and that includes YOU as a Private person.

you say you understand the old software tools of your trade, and from that are we to assume you also Now know first hand, the Power of these Deep Packet Inspection/Interception, Yes/No?

then With your private person "Hat On" , you and More so your readers, should Be informed that Experian are infact now the owners of that HitWise data collection, that HitWise IS useing the same type of DPI interception devices as Phorm and NebuAd, and Experian are working to also get this kit into all the ISPs internal country wide networks, to data mine all Your Online personal data and that of the website owners too perhaps, after all its now becomeing "Industry Practice" so that makes it all legal and right ,if they can do it, so can you type thinking perhaps.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3688387.ece
Experian to track net users



Expect your most interesting Datastreams and their "derivative works" in your Credit Reference File any day now if not sooner....

Ohh and while your here just to fill i that other forgotten goldmine....

you might also want to inform your readers, your family and friends that the Mobile DPI interception for Profit of Your Datastreams is already available to your friendly 3rd party data collectors, coming to your EU (Helsinki Finland ?)Mobile Phone any day now too....

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/12/mobile_phom/
Qualcomm buys into Phorm-alike firm

Data gathering on the hoof

"The Irish company specialises in analysing the habits of mobile phone users in order to target advertising at them, and has customers including Orange UK..."

"
Orange assured us that the "browsing logs" only refers to on-portal usage (within Orange World), and "billing information" relates to purchases made from the operator.

However, Portal Relevance Manager Jim Small is quoted as saying that 2008 will be the year when the service is "rolled out fully into all download content areas and beyond into browsing content in third-party off portal services".
"

[Privacy_Matters]

Originally Posted by Blackbeak

Ok, one thing I would like to add. IP address is NOT PII in any legal act. It may one day become PII but it is not classed as such yet.

Correct which is why the wording is:

"The European Data Commission had indicated that the IP Address for any Internet User IS PII"

and not

"The European Data Commission have Legislated that the IP Address for any Internet User IS PII"

Anyways, bickering aside....

... Phorm MUST be stopped

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Blackbeak

You and I are talking about different things. The closest they (that is Phorm and BT) get to personal information is a UID cookie assigned to an IP address according to what I've read. It's not your personal information according to Dr Claytons document on the subject.

You think?

OK so when Phorm intercept your non blacklisted web mail which may have your real name appear in any text in an email or email header, that is not access to personal information?

When Phorm intercept your shopping carts which are not https encrypted (most are only encrypted for the Login not for further pages) that is not access to your personal information?

When Phorm intercept your forum posts on a political forum where you share your political views, that is not access to your personal information?

Just three off the bat examples, I could name hundreds of others if you like.

Interception at the network level IS NOT the best way to gather this data (nor is it legal). There are no safeguards in place whatsoever in real terms and all Phorm's spouting on about blacklists and whitelists is just a bunch of whitewash. Given the nature of changes on the net on a minute by minute basis whitelists and blacklists are not suitable solutions because they can never feasibly keep up or cover even a modest percentage of possible breaches of privacy.

It is ILLEGAL period. BT broke CRIMINAL LAW and COMMON LAW with their trials, Phorm were complicit and should be charged with conspiracy under the same laws.

The current model of Phorm's technology is also in violation of CRIMINAL and COMMON LAW for many of the same reasons but with Fraud thrown in for free.

How many times does that need saying to drill it into your head?

Alexander Hanff

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

New Flyer - simpler, only one page, higher impact. Comments anyone?

http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phorm_Flyer_V0.pdf

Superb. Informative, cogent and concise. Well done.

Originally Posted by Blackbeak

I have changed my position based on legal papers presented to me by Dr Clayton.

...

I don't think anyone in my industry agrees with deception and therefore I will write another post to re-iterate my position.

Good. It would be a shame for someone who seems to have some intelligence not to learn from so many others that they were wrong.

Deception, Blackbeak, is what Phorm and Webwise is ALL about.

It has to be sold to consumers using deception because there is very little good to be gained by the consumer and plenty to lose. That's why Webwise has been and will continue to be "sold" as giving users security with its anti-phishing piece (the anti-phishing alreday freely available in IE7 etc and therefore just not needed)

Hank

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:06 ----------

oh-oh... we're goin to be victims of their trial again?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle4137799.ece

After a troubled beginning, Phorm’s time may finally have come. The firm tracks the websites that internet users visit and serves them relevant display advertising. So far Virgin Media, Talk Talk and BT – where the latest trial of the technology begins this week – have signed up, keen to get a slice of the online advertising pie.

Significant concerns about Phorm remain. A 20% slide in its thinly traded, volatile shares this year stems from the fact that it is a long way from delivering on its promises. Phorm’s sales are still negligible.

However, the talk is that boss Kent Ertugrul will shortly sign up an overseas internet service provider, too.

Whether his business model gains traction or not, the shares look ready to bounce back.

[popper]

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

New Flyer - simpler, only one page, higher impact. Comments anyone?

http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phorm_Flyer_V0.pdf

i think you get the picture LOL,

thats fantastic, and the

Who is affected?

Everyone is at risk.

If you are an MP, lawyer,
doctor, journalist, business executive, housewife,

is in just the right place, Jumps out of the page perfectly

well done

[AlexanderHanff]

Well I guess in some respects we can only hope the trials are finally going to start (although I won't hold my breath) because that is when people who are issued with the "We want to spy on everything you do (well almost everything) can we have your permission please?" page will start to lookup Phorm/Webwise etc on Google and we all know what they are going to see.

Launching a trial now just before the AGM might be a big bonus for the campaign because it will increase public awareness immediately.

There are a couple of us with AdWord campaigns running at the moment so hopefully we will be capture a large percentage of Google traffic relating to the trial.

Alexander Hanff

Originally Posted by Portly_Giraffe

New Flyer - simpler, only one page, higher impact. Comments anyone?

http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phorm_Flyer_V0.pdf

Excellent. I've sent you a PM. Hank.

[AlexanderHanff]

Actually speaking of AdWords if anyone is a pro can they get in touch by PM it would be handy to have some help making sure we make the most out of our campaigns.

Alexander Hanff

[Wildie]

What business model is that? the covert one got blown, now it must be OPT IN, which will hurt it a lot.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Wildie

What business model is that? the covert one got blown, now it must be OPT IN, which will hurt it a lot.

Y'see, I'm still not sure of that. A cleverly designed webpage extolling the benefits of webwise might catch a lot of phish. How many teenagers for example will care enough to find out what it's all about? In the "give me something for free" culture, why would they turn down the extra freebee "security"? Given that their parents are forever telling them to be careful online, they may even see it as a sensible move

This comes back to something I said earlier. We have to win hearts and minds outside the geek World or the further trials could be declared a success with only a minority objecting and/or not participating. BT and whoever could be selective about participants and screen out all known dissenters.

[popper]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

You're going to find some of this hard to believe...

To summarise a Freedom of Information Response from the Home Office;

• Home Office had one meeting with Phorm in August 2007 (after the 2007 trials in the summer perhaps?)
  
• Home Office did not consult with any external bodies (including UK Intellectual Property Office), did not consult with any independent IT or Communications industry expertise, did not consult with any external legal advice before preparing their "Is it legal?" advice document
  
• Home Office did not discuss with BT/Phorm the proposition that Phorm would enable compliance with proposed UK and European Data Retention laws
  
• Regarding an assertion that the Home Office might expect "to stand with Industry on any human rights challenge" to Phorm as a possible way forward to a "code of practice for voluntary data retention"*, the Home Office consider the quotes to which I referred were taken out of context from "part of a presentation encouraging the communications industry to retain data under the Anti Terrorism Crime and Security Act. Target Online Advertising is a commercial activity that the industry is undertaking for its own interests. The two issues are not and never have been linked."

* See slide 13 in this presentation; http://www.fipr.org/sfs6/watkin.ppt

not everyone can read Powerpoint without installing the massive MS or OO so i saved it out as a PDF and saved a few K in the process for those people.

[popper]

hank, i posted to that
"Whether his business model gains traction or not, the shares look ready to bounce back"
but they dont seem willing to authorise comments that point out the the fact his long term business model is no good, as its based on making Unlawful "derivative works" using commercial Piracy without paying the content owners their fees, or signing a contract as its base...

---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:51 ----------

Ohhh thats odd BUT I LIKE IT, i made a second post and it didnt get mashed into the one just above it, cool....

did Paul change the settings? good i prefer it this way.

apparently only a one off, shame...

[Blackbeak]

Please feel free to use this article, my name and the full discussion on my site if you feel it will give strength to your arguments. FYI the legal document supplied by Dr Clayton was the clincher for me.

Bad Phorm

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Blackbeak

Please feel free to use this article, my name and the full discussion on my site if you feel it will give strength to your arguments. FYI the legal document supplied by Dr Clayton was the clincher for me.

Bad Phorm

Thanks for making the effort to listen, do further research and post your findings with honesty.

Alexander Hanff