Brexit discussion

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Carth

There you go again . . there are no 'facts' simply guesswork and supposition.

Oh, and it seems to me that most of the 'panicking' going on is from the Remainers camp

Nothing wrong with this Country at all, as long as you've got a job and somewhere to live.
Those that haven't will have a different view of many things and, whether rightly or wrongly, will blame much of it on the EU.
I'm sure they'd swap their current lifestyle for one of those with a nice house, car, and earning 300k + a year, and probably change their vote if they did.

One thing that Margaret Thatcher did was to try and teach people to take personal responsibility for their own circumstances and to try and improve them. Clearly that message did not reach those who apparently "blame much of it on the EU".

And no, those leaked documents are not guesswork. It's hard evidence-based work, not Project Fear or anything like that, just cross-departmental work from some of the finest brains in the country. Doubtless Leavers will try and criticise our hardworking civil servants in the same way they denigrate this fine country of ours.

Originally Posted by Mick

I think you need a lesson on what is a ‘fact’ and was is an ‘assumption’. Facts are past tense, which means an event has happened for it be recorded as a fact. An event that ‘could’ happen in the future, cannot be classed as a fact.

If another form of words is what it takes then I'm happy to stick with Robert Peston's:

Or to put it another way, the Whitehall “experts” - so derided by Gove in the run-up to the referendum - are getting their own back on Gove and Johnson by providing supposed empirical proof that the Leavers’ passion to take back total control over making laws that affect business and commerce would be to throw mountains of £50 notes on to a religious fire.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

If another form of words is what it takes then I'm happy to stick with Robert Peston's:

You’re still wrong though, so stick to what you like.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

You’re still wrong though, so stick to what you like.

Call me old fashioned, but I'll stick with this country's hardworking civil servants and their analysis.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Call me old fashioned, but I'll stick with this country's hardworking civil servants and their analysis.

Good lad, you do that mate

It's not as though they've got a good track record so maybe, just maybe, the odds will be with them getting something at least half right


oh, and nice work with 'analysis' instead of 'fact'

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

try and teach people to take personal responsibility for their own circumstances and to try and improve them.

I think they do try to improve their circumstances, but it's hard to get a home when they're bottom of a very long list (which includes immigrants), and even harder to get a job when you're 1 out of 200 applying.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Call me old fashioned, but I'll stick with this country's hardworking civil servants and their analysis.

You mean assumptions.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Carth

Good lad, you do that mate
It's not as though they've got a good track record so maybe, just maybe, the odds will be with them getting something at least half right

More talking the country and its civil servants down. This is a great country, it's not without its faults but we are lucky to have some hardworking and competent civil servants batting for Great Britain. Where exactly is their bad track record? It's normally fat cat politicians who are at fault than the lads and lasses working for the civil service. But obviously like anywhere they will get dumped upon from those on high.

---------- Post added at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:02 ----------

Originally Posted by Mick

You mean assumptions.

Damien's tried to explain this to you far better than I ever will in a month of Sundays. If you can't get your head around his level-headed insight and clear explanations then there's little mere mortals like me can do.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

More talking the country and its civil servants down. This is a great country, it's not without its faults but we are lucky to have some hardworking and competent civil servants batting for Great Britain. Where exactly is their bad track record? It's normally fat cat politicians who are at fault than the lads and lasses working for the civil service. But obviously like anywhere they will get dumped upon from those on high.

---------- Post added at 21:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:02 ----------


Damien's tried to explain this to you far better than I ever will in a month of Sundays. If you can't get your head around his level-headed insight and clear explanations then there's little mere mortals like me can do.

There is nothing to explain.

Talking of future events that could happen, but equally could not, are assumptions. No getting round this at all.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

There is nothing to explain.

Talking of future events that could happen, but equally could not, are assumptions. No getting round this at all.

The facts are that the Government's own analysis has shown that leaving the EU will be detrimental to the UK economy. Unpalatable for Brexiters who may have to resort to knocking our hardworking civil servants and failing to understand how such analysis is conducted.
For anyone else, they make grim reading.

[jonbxx]

If predicting future economic states is futile, who asked the civil servants at DExEU to compile a study, knowing it's a waste of time? Can we be sure and be assured that government policy will not be affected by any study predicting the effects of different types of Brexit?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

If predicting future economic states is futile, who asked the civil servants at DExEU to compile a study, knowing it's a waste of time? Can we be sure and be assured that government policy will not be affected by any study predicting the effects of different types of Brexit?

You're right. It's a bit awkward for the Brexit Dept and far from surprising that the Department has such a high staff turnover if your boss stabs you in the back...for doing your job properly!

Two bits of other news today:

1) In a U-turn, the Brexit economic impact reports will now be published.
https://news.sky.com/story/ministers...study-11230715

2) The EU has confirmed that there can be no special cake-and-eat-it deal for the UK financial services sector.

EU Brexit negotiators have set out a tough line on financial services, ruling out an ambitious trade deal for the lucrative sector and arguing that Europe would benefit from a smaller City of London, according to confidential discussions among the other 27 EU member states.
In a rebuff to the UK, which is seeking to put financial services at the heart of a trade deal with the bloc, an internal EU27 meeting this week concluded that future arrangements should be based on “equivalence” — the limited and revocable access given to third-country institutions — rather than a wide-ranging new pact.

https://www.ft.com/content/7f7669a4-...0-9c0ad2d7c5b5

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The EU has confirmed that there can be no special cake-and-eat-it deal for the UK financial services sector.

The EU clearly knows nothing about the British people. I hope they keep pushing .

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Kursk

The EU clearly knows nothing about the British people. I hope they keep pushing .

Too damn right

There was a UK Government that knew nothing about the British people too . . until they pushed back

let's all sing together . . the wheels on the (red bus with the NHS slogan*) go round and round, round and round . . .


*not that many of us believed that anyway

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Kursk

The EU clearly knows nothing about the British people. I hope they keep pushing .

The EU pushed last time and the UK obligingly caved in. I have no doubt the hapless David Davis will Carry on Conceding.

[heero_yuy]

Quote from City AM:


Steve Baker has been accused of undermining the government he is part of, after upsetting civil servants for the second time this week.

The Brexit minister this morning confirmed backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg's claim that he had heard from Charles Grant, director of the Centre for European Reform, that “officials in the Treasury have deliberately developed a model to show that all options other than staying in the customs union were bad and that officials intended to use this to influence policy".

Baker said: “I am sorry to say that my honourable friend’s account is essentially correct [that Grant had made this claim].”

He added: "At the time I considered it implausible because my direct experience is that civil servants are extraordinarily careful to uphold the impartiality of the civil service. I think we must proceed with great caution in this matter but I heard him raise this issue. I think we need to be very careful not to take this forward in an inappropriate way... I think it would be quite extraordinary if it turned out that such a thing had happened."

Charles Grant has denied saying this as have other people in the meeting. Not to mention Baker has now angered the civil servants who were asked by the Government to produce this study before being thrown under the bus, with apparently little evidence (even if the claim had been made), when the government didn't like the results.....

How can the Government expect to get what they ask for if Ministers will stand before Parliament and accuse them of lying and being unprofessional for political cover?