Brexit (Old)

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by denphone

Well by tonight or not long after we will know if Theresa May has miraculously suddenly united her warring cabinet or the brown stuff is about to hit the fan,

As others tell us denphone, it's a strong and stable government.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

As others tell us denphone, it's a strong and stable government.

Sadly neither the government or the opposition are offering us that currently Andrew.

[Carth]

It would be interesting to hear peoples views on the last time we did have a strong and stable government, just to see all the conflicting reactions

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Have you had a chance to consider my point about all those leave politicians who said otherwise and I've provided video evidence of?

My understanding was that some leave campaigners said that the UK should leave the EU but get preferential access to the single market without having to accept freedom of movement to get it.

I know comparisons were made to Norway, etc, but surely that was to demonstrate that even those arrangements were better than staying in the EU.

I, and from my conversations with other leavers (and there are a lot of them), others who voted the same way, are all pretty clear that we wanted, and still want, was a clean break with the ability to forge our own trade deals. The big bus is proof that the leave campaign was looking to save all the money we were paying into the EU.

The same views are reflected in the comments made by leavers in this Forum.

---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I love seeing the politicians squirm. It's been great fun these past 30 months or so.

Disappointing, though, are the apologists for the EU, the deniers of our democratic voting system and the sneerers on this forum.

Don't take any notice of this fake news, Seph. Raab is going nowhere.

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 ----------

Originally Posted by denphone

Well several have already resigned up to this stage Andrew in the last few months unless you have not noticed and not much has changed from then to now in terms of the continuing cabinet chaos over Brexit.

Yes, they have, Den, because the leavers believe that we are not getting to leave.

I understand that, but what we need to bear in mind is that the document TM has negotiated is about the transition period, during which we would have left but we are still tied to EU rules with no say during roughly a 20 month period. At the end of that, we should have a no-tariff trade deal with the EU and we will be released from EU jurisdiction and the customs union.

Some don't want to wait, but if we want to ensure frictionless trade during this period to help our businesses, then we have to do this.

DUP Latest: Arlene Foster interestingly points out this morning and says the DUP Confidence and Supply agreement is with the Conservative Party, not Theresa May.

[Dave42]

gonna be a interesting day

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Carth

It would be interesting to hear peoples views on the last time we did have a strong and stable government, just to see all the conflicting reactions

That would open a can of worms! (for me, Thatcher 1988 or Blair 1998 so good economy, massive majority and no Poll Tax riots or fuel protests)

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

That's at the heart of the issue. The Government should have negotiated a withdrawal deal with the EU before offering people a vote. Then people wouldn't have had to vote blindly and we wouldn't have such splits in the Government.
This is not some cosy philosophical chat over a few ports in Eton, it's about the future of the UK, its inhabitants and citizens.

Oh yeah, and of course they would have offered us a fantastic deal!

DC tried to do a deal before the referendum, and was sent home with a flea in his ear.

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

But we have has this discussion many times and it seems that because the way the EU does things is different, it is wrong even though our government along with all the others at the time approved it in the Maastricht Treaty and beyond.

That's right, the time when we should have had a referendum. The Irish had one, and they opposed it, and then they were told to have another one until they agreed with it.

Sound familiar.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Oh yeah, and of course they would have offered us a fantastic deal!

DC tried to do a deal before the referendum, and was sent home with a flea in his ear.

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------



That's right, the time when we should have had a referendum. The Irish had one, and they opposed it, and then they were told to have another one until they agreed with it.

Sound familiar.

Like Brexit, it wasn't that simple...

Let’s look at the second Irish referendum on the Lisbon EU treaty. This vote in June 2008 resulted in a decisive defeat for the EU treaty. In a turnout of 53%, 53% voted no, which was a major shock to the government and main opposition parties which had decisively endorsed the treaty. In October 2009 the Irish electorate voted again and returned a very different result. With turnout of 58%, 67% of voters voted yes and just two of the country’s 43 electoral constituencies voted no. A majority of men and women of all age groups and socioeconomic classes endorsed the treaty.

How was this achieved? The Irish government played for time at home. It turned to research to understand voter attitudes, commissioning a comprehensive academic study on the behaviour of the electorate. By September 2008, the government had solid evidence on why voters voted the way they did, and could begin to craft a strategy. Armed with the results, the Irish parliament interrogated Ireland’s future in the EU, and its deliberations led to the publication of a report titled Ireland’s Future in the European Union: Challenges, Issues and Options. While the people had spoken through a referendum, representative democracy reasserted its core role in the Irish political system and the quality of debate underlined the seriousness of the issues at stake.

At the same time, the Irish government engaged intensively with its EU partners. Neither side wanted to lose the Lisbon treaty. By December 2008, the broad outline of a deal was emerging which included the retention of one commissioner per state and legal guarantees on issues such as taxation, security and abortion. Next came the difficult task of translating this into a document. The Irish negotiators met every member state government at least twice and many three or four times between January and June 2009 to achieve agreement. On the eve of the June 2009 European council meeting, the then Irish prime minister, Brian Cowen, wrote to his counterparts saying that without legally binding guarantees he was unwilling to hold a referendum. With such guarantees, the government was prepared to go back to the electorate to ask “is this your final answer?”

Irish voters, particularly “soft” no voters, did not resent voting again because many of them felt that their first vote was uninformed. Lack of knowledge, information and understanding was cited by 42% of those who voted no first time. Unsurprisingly, those voters at the harder end of the no spectrum objected to the second referendum but the majority of voters were willing to revisit the question given the guarantees...

...Was the second vote a travesty of democracy? More people voted in the second referendum and the treaty was carried in urban and rural Ireland and across all socioeconomic groups. Moreover, people felt that they had a much better grasp of the issues. A democracy has the right to change its mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...d-lisbon-polls

[denphone]

The Daily Telegraph’s chief political correspondent Christopher Hope has tweeted that he has heard two cabinet ministers will resign today.

The rumoured pair are international development secretary Penny Mordaunt, and Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Esther McVey.

[Carth]

All these people resigning . . does that mean they can't claim unemployment (or whatever it's now called) for 6 months?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Like Brexit, it wasn't that simple...



https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...d-lisbon-polls

That sounds so reasonable, doesn't it?

Except that if the answer was 'right' the first time with this same ill-informed referendum, would there have been another one?

Of course not. So cynical.

Originally Posted by Carth

All these people resigning . . does that mean they can't claim unemployment (or whatever it's now called) for 6 months?

They still have their MP salary to scrape by on...

---------- Post added at 15:40 ---------- Previous post was at 15:38 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

That sounds so reasonable, doesn't it?

Except that if the answer was 'right' the first time with this same ill-informed referendum, would there have been another one?

Of course not. So cynical.

I know - imagine people with more information available making a different choice - that would never happen here...

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

They still have their MP salary to scrape by on...

---------- Post added at 15:40 ---------- Previous post was at 15:38 ----------

I know - imagine people with more information available making a different choice - that would never happen here...

Maybe this is a lesson for future referendums, if indeed we ever tread that path again. Inform thoroughly first, then take the vote.

In this case though, I very much doubt the view of the British electorate would have changed. The Establishment still appears to be blissfully unaware of the population's attitude to the undemocratic and bureaucratic EU.

Originally Posted by denphone

The Daily Telegraph’s chief political correspondent Christopher Hope has tweeted that he has heard two cabinet ministers will resign today.

The rumoured pair are international development secretary Penny Mordaunt, and Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Esther McVey.

They were believed to be absent during PMQ's earlier today...

---------- Post added at 15:52 ---------- Previous post was at 15:48 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

I know - imagine people with more information available making a different choice - that would never happen here...

What makes you think the misinformation wouldn't happen again, during more campaigns?

Most people I know who voted to leave, like me, had already made up their minds years earlier.

---------- Post added at 15:59 ---------- Previous post was at 15:52 ----------

BREAKING: Prime Minister Theresa May, expected to make Statement outside 10 Downing Street at 5PM according to Reuters News Agency.