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Election 2019, Week 1
View Poll Results: Your voting intention at this stage of the campaign:
Labour 7 14.58%
Conservative 20 41.67%
Liberal Democrat 8 16.67%
UKIP 0 0%
Brexit Party 3 6.25%
Green 0 0%
Change UK 0 0%
Plaid Cymru 1 2.08%
SNP 1 2.08%
Irish nationalist 1 2.08%
Irish unionist 0 0%
Other 1 2.08%
Abstaining 2 4.17%
Ineligible 0 0%
Undecided 4 8.33%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-11-2019, 18:11   #316
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Point of order - our head of state is not ineffective. The monarch does her job perfectly well. Electing a head of state to the constitutional and ceremonial role occupied by the monarch wouldn’t do anything to make the role more politically active (which is what you appear to be confusing with effectiveness). To do that we would have to make deep constitutional changes and create an executive presidency after the American or French model. I don’t find that idea especially attractive.
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Old 07-11-2019, 18:14   #317
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Many people on the Crown’s coin, Establishment stooges.

You should get your own show.
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Old 07-11-2019, 18:33   #318
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
You should get your own show.
Make sure it's on when i'm asleep in bed.
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Old 07-11-2019, 18:35   #319
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
another one that fell off the silly tree and hit every branch on the way down.
How terrible the world must be for you ...
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Old 07-11-2019, 18:36   #320
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
You should get your own show.
Are you denying that these “observers” or participants are part of the Establishment?

It’s best not to demonstrate complete ignorance when your argument is already on shaky ground.
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Old 07-11-2019, 18:43   #321
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Many people on the Crown’s coin, Establishment stooges.
As you have only responded to the second part of my post do I take it you are accepting the first part? Oh and just to point out that the people who determined the proroguing was unlawful were, by definition, on the "Crown's coin" and, therefore, by your argument "Establishment stooges" so should we ignore their part in the process?
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Old 07-11-2019, 19:05   #322
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

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Originally Posted by gba93 View Post
As you have only responded to the second part of my post do I take it you are accepting the first part? Oh and just to point out that the people who determined the proroguing was unlawful were, by definition, on the "Crown's coin" and, therefore, by your argument "Establishment stooges" so should we ignore their part in the process?
I addressed the illegal/unlawful point earlier - the fact is the Queen couldn’t seek her own legal advice or make her own judgement making her ineffective.

I don’t think the Government are blameless, indeed they deserve most of the blame for that farce.
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Old 07-11-2019, 20:10   #323
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
He's not a Labour MP.
Ok, a former Labour MP. I hope that clarification helps.

---------- Post added at 18:51 ---------- Previous post was at 18:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
This isn't the Brexit thread, from which I'm currently banned, so I'm not going to address your points, which I suspect you've had three years to formulate after the fact.

The UK can hardly be democratic with majority Governments that 65% of people voted for someone else.
Take a cold shower, jfman. I was responding to the point made in your own post.

---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Proportional representation. As in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Germany, etc.

---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:36 ----------



I doubt 33 million people sought to educate themselves on all of those matters.
Exactly how high a level of education do you need to work that out, jfman? What an arrogant point of view you have towards Labour voting leavers!

One can only assume they were who you were referring to.

---------- Post added at 18:56 ---------- Previous post was at 18:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
I chose this article because it was reasonably balanced and offered an objective opinion. Things that you seem to be incapable of understanding. All Governments can be criticised with the clarity of hindsight but the essence of this article is that the overwhelming cause of the 10 years of austerity was the 2008/9 financial crisis caused by the City and their free market greed. Furthermore, the people who caused this get bailed out by us, the tax payer, with no penalties and are now busy working a repeat of 2008/9.

Your inability to assign the blame at the door of those responsible speaks volumes ...
You only think the article is balanced because it meets with your mindset. I was drawing attention to a certain part of that article to show that the point I had been making was valid. Strange that you are so blind to that that you appear to have 'unseen' it.

---------- Post added at 18:59 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
Give it a break. The "I know what I voted for" ship has long sailed. All the adults in the room understand that people voted for many different reasons. In fact, and this is a real shock I suspect, some voted for no reason at all. They didn't give a damn because no-one gave a damn about them.
You seem quite happy for remainers to trot out this nonsense, but when leavers send out their consistent responses, you moan about it. If you don't want to hear this response over and over then tell your mates to stop making the same points over and over. The answer won't change the more times you make erroneous statements.

---------- Post added at 19:00 ---------- Previous post was at 18:59 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
It would literally be a Government that people did vote for.
Yes, a hung Parliament in perpetuity. Now wouldn't you just like that!

---------- Post added at 19:02 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
According to statistics Remain voters are highly educated !
Obviously the view of highly qualified remain supporting statisticians.

---------- Post added at 19:04 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
It'd have closer policy outcomes to what the majority want, rather than satisfying a minority of the people with a majority Government.

Compromise - I know that notion died in 2016 - would be the result. Either way I'm only pointing out that in the UK FPTP, an unelected House of Lords and an ineffective Head of State leave us some distance from what could be considered democracy.
No, it would satisfy nobody. Have you not heard the frustration of the people of having to endure this Parliamentary pergatory for the last few years? That is definitely not what people want. That would only play into the hands of anarchists.

---------- Post added at 19:10 ---------- Previous post was at 19:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
She literally sat there and had to carry forward illegal advice from a Prime Minister. Totally ineffective in a role that could and should perform an important check and balance against an incompetent executive.
I think the Queen is far more educated in terms of constitutional matters than most presidents. I would remind you that the legal advice was endorsed by the Attorney General. Why should she not accept it?

The core of the problem was that a biased Speaker who showed clearly that he would do all he could to sabotage Brexit simply manipulated the rules of Parliament and caused a Constitutional crisis.

Fortunately, in the new Parliament we will have a more traditional Speaker whom both sides can respect.
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Old 07-11-2019, 21:51   #324
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
She literally sat there and had to carry forward illegal advice from a Prime Minister. Totally ineffective in a role that could and should perform an important check and balance against an incompetent executive.
Illegal: forbidden by law.
Unlawful: not authorised by law.

If you’re going to play lawyers, do try to get your basic facts right. The Supreme Court ruled the advice unlawful, not illegal. There is more than a trivial difference between the two.

---------- Post added at 20:51 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I addressed the illegal/unlawful point earlier - the fact is the Queen couldn’t seek her own legal advice or make her own judgement making her ineffective.

I don’t think the Government are blameless, indeed they deserve most of the blame for that farce.
It is not the Queen’s role to seek advice from any other source. Her constitutional role is to receive advice from ministers. That is what ministers are for.

You can’t judge someone ineffective for not doing something they are neither permitted nor expected to do. You might as well declare your car ineffective because it doesn’t float.
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Old 07-11-2019, 22:26   #325
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Illegal: forbidden by law.
Unlawful: not authorised by law.

If you’re going to play lawyers, do try to get your basic facts right. The Supreme Court ruled the advice unlawful, not illegal. There is more than a trivial difference between the two.

---------- Post added at 20:51 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------



It is not the Queen’s role to seek advice from any other source. Her constitutional role is to receive advice from ministers. That is what ministers are for.

You can’t judge someone ineffective for not doing something they are neither permitted nor expected to do. You might as well declare your car ineffective because it doesn’t float.
Could we wait for him to try floating it first?
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Old 07-11-2019, 23:10   #326
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Are you denying that these “observers” or participants are part of the Establishment? .
Which “Observers” are you referring to?

Which “Establishment” are you referring to?

---------- Post added at 22:04 ---------- Previous post was at 22:03 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
How terrible the world must be for you ...
The world is great for me, how are you doing?

---------- Post added at 22:09 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I addressed the illegal/unlawful point earlier - the fact is the Queen couldn’t seek her own legal advice or make her own judgement making her ineffective.
The queen didn’t need any legal advice, as when the PM requested her to prorogue Parliament there was no reason for her to decline the request.

---------- Post added at 22:10 ---------- Previous post was at 22:09 ----------

Quote:
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Could we wait for him to try floating it first?
Oh please.
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Old 07-11-2019, 23:21   #327
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
I was drawing attention to a certain part of that article to show that the point I had been making was valid
Let's make this very clear shall we? You blame the 10 years of austerity on Labour. You do not accept the real cause. You constantly peddle the free market dream world in denial of the facts.

Your "point" is to perpetuate the lie that free market capitalism is the answer when everyone can see that this ship has sailed, hit the iceberg and all we see is you rearranging the deckchairs ...

---------- Post added at 22:21 ---------- Previous post was at 22:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Illegal: forbidden by law.
Unlawful: not authorised by law.

If you’re going to play lawyers, do try to get your basic facts right. The Supreme Court ruled the advice unlawful, not illegal. There is more than a trivial difference between the two.

---------- Post added at 20:51 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------



It is not the Queen’s role to seek advice from any other source. Her constitutional role is to receive advice from ministers. That is what ministers are for.

You can’t judge someone ineffective for not doing something they are neither permitted nor expected to do. You might as well declare your car ineffective because it doesn’t float.
I feel the point here is that the Head of State should, with appropriate help, be in a position to validate the "advice" received from the Executive. If not, then what value does this individual contribute in terms of Government?
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Old 07-11-2019, 23:59   #328
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
Let's make this very clear shall we? You blame the 10 years of austerity on Labour. You do not accept the real cause. You constantly peddle the free market dream world in denial of the facts.

Your "point" is to perpetuate the lie that free market capitalism is the answer when everyone can see that this ship has sailed, hit the iceberg and all we see is you rearranging the deckchairs ...

---------- Post added at 22:21 ---------- Previous post was at 22:18 ----------



I feel the point here is that the Head of State should, with appropriate help, be in a position to validate the "advice" received from the Executive. If not, then what value does this individual contribute in terms of Government?
The Queen is entitled to be consulted and to offer words of advice. Beyond that she contributes little to government, which is as it should be. The wearer of the crown is not elected so should not exercise executive power.

The point of the Crown in our constitution is that it is where power is located. That power cannot be exercised by the person wearing the crown, because they are constitutionally restricted from doing so, and it cannot be appropriated by legislators who must swear allegiance to it as a condition of office. It cannot be taken by revolution because nobody can wear it but the legitimate heir.

Now we could junk all of this and opt for a republic with an executive presidency, with powers delineated by a written constitution, but that is no guarantee of better government or decision making. In fact our own Supreme Court, operating with years of precedent and Acts of Parliament (or lack of, hence “unlawful”, not “illegal” in the case of prorogation), dealt with that issue rather more quickly than the Americans are presently dealing with the potential impeachment of Donald Trump, and all the while the United States has a head of state that is a divisive political figure rather than a symbol of unity.

If we were setting up a country from scratch today, it’s highly unlikely we would create a constitutional monarchy. But the point is, we aren’t creating a country from scratch, we’re living in one whose democracy and institutions have remained stable for longer than just about anywhere else in the world, and much of that sense of stability, continuity and unity is symbolised by the Crown. Asking whether the Queen should involve herself in government more directly appears trivial by comparison.
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Old 08-11-2019, 08:25   #329
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

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Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
Let's make this very clear shall we? You blame the 10 years of austerity on Labour. You do not accept the real cause. You constantly peddle the free market dream world in denial of the facts.

Your "point" is to perpetuate the lie that free market capitalism is the answer when everyone can see that this ship has sailed, hit the iceberg and all we see is you rearranging the deckchairs ..
Now you are just re-writing history. Even Labour had to admit the money had run out.

As for 'free market capitalism', what do you propose instead? Communism doesn't work. The system that works best is a mixed economy, which is what we have.
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Old 08-11-2019, 08:54   #330
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Now you are just re-writing history. Even Labour had to admit the money had run out.

As for 'free market capitalism', what do you propose instead? Communism doesn't work. The system that works best is a mixed economy, which is what we have.
I'm stood on a delayed 1970s overcrowded, overpriced, failed heating train this morning, going nowhere slowly. One of many areas where the private sector has failed us (they of course, are doing quite well out of it !)

The economy isn't working well, and will be worse if those self centered idiots get another 5 years. Borrowing not seen since the 1970s is planned by this Govt., sublime to the ridiculous... Austerity was for nothing, has caused huge uneeded damage and solved nothing.
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