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Election 2019, Week 1
View Poll Results: Your voting intention at this stage of the campaign:
Labour 7 14.58%
Conservative 20 41.67%
Liberal Democrat 8 16.67%
UKIP 0 0%
Brexit Party 3 6.25%
Green 0 0%
Change UK 0 0%
Plaid Cymru 1 2.08%
SNP 1 2.08%
Irish nationalist 1 2.08%
Irish unionist 0 0%
Other 1 2.08%
Abstaining 2 4.17%
Ineligible 0 0%
Undecided 4 8.33%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-11-2019, 13:07   #211
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
If they are working in a public service e.g. the NHS, it certainly is helping us. What they do with their money is up to them, they might have left dependents behind.
Indeed when people spend thousands on Chinese electronics is that any different?

I save roughly half my wages each month and don't plan to spend any of it on UK manufactured goods or services. Does that make me a bad person?
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Old 04-11-2019, 13:14   #212
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

JO SWINSON'S office has reportedly been cordoned off by police after a suspect package was left outside.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...uspect-package
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Old 04-11-2019, 13:27   #213
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Indeed when people spend thousands on Chinese electronics is that any different?

I save roughly half my wages each month and don't plan to spend any of it on UK manufactured goods or services. Does that make me a bad person?
Of course it doesn't make you a bad person, as Mr K says, it's your money to do with however it takes your fancy.

It may make you seem hypocritical though, if you start going on about economies and global warming
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Old 04-11-2019, 15:06   #214
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...past-2020.html

So, even if we leave with a deal, itíll probably end up as a no-deal Brexit.

Quote:
Downing Street rules out extending the Brexit transition period past 2020 as Number 10 slaps down a Cabinet minister who said free trade talks with the EU will not be 'straightforward'

Downing Street today categorically ruled out extending the Brexit transition period beyond 2020 after a Cabinet minister warned trade talks with the EU would not be 'straightforward'.

Under the terms of Boris Johnson's divorce deal, the EU and the UK have until the end of next year to hammer out the details of their post-Brexit trading relationship.

Critics believe there is no chance of the two sides getting everything done in such a short space of time and the divorce deal does include the option of a delay of up to two years...

... International trade agreements often take years to complete - a new pact between the EU and Japan took the best part of six years to negotiate.

But the government believes the deal between the EU and the UK will be much quicker because the two sides are starting from the same point on tariffs and rules.
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Old 04-11-2019, 15:10   #215
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

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Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
I think you have answered your own question and also highlighted the hypocrisy of the right. Yes, if you are wealthy it is fine to avoid paying your fair share of taxes and hide it in offshore tax havens but if you are earning a modest wage, woe betide you if you choose what to do with your money.
I think he was highlighting Hypocrisy full stop.
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Old 04-11-2019, 15:24   #216
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
Thank you for proving my point. The whole basis of the 2016 vote was an immoral one: the socio-economic fate of an entire country possibly decided by 1 person.
You’re out of step with much of the world, where simple majority is the rule in the vast majority of cases. Where that is qualified, it is usually done so via a quorum or in federal systems by requiring a yes vote in a majority of states also.

https://researchbriefings.files.parl...09/SN02809.pdf

Quote:
Your other point also is flawed as you well know. The PR option in this referendum was deliberately chosen as the worse available:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2011_Uni...ote_referendum

At the time of the referendum, three nations used AV for parliamentary elections: Australia, Papua New Guinea, and Fiji.
Yet the Lib Dems declared it a baby step in the right direction and campaigned for Yes.

I am sceptical that most of the British electorate saw the question in so technical terms as the reform campaigner cited at Wikiwand and am content that as an exercise in determining appetite for change, the referendum adequately showed that the British electorate are sufficiently happy with the present system to leave it as is.

In the 2017 election, despite the plurality of parties available, well over 80% of all votes went to either Labour or Conservative.

Last edited by Chris; 04-11-2019 at 15:27.
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Old 04-11-2019, 15:31   #217
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...past-2020.html

So, even if we leave with a deal, itíll probably end up as a no-deal Brexit.
So the penny has eventually dropped. As nomadking, myself and other leave supporters have been trying to tell you. The WA is not a deal, never has been, never will be.
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Old 04-11-2019, 17:34   #218
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...past-2020.html

So, even if we leave with a deal, it’ll probably end up as a no-deal Brexit.
Well, that's if you believe "Downing Street says..."

Last edited by jfman; 04-11-2019 at 17:42.
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Old 04-11-2019, 17:41   #219
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Given that the Tories need to find a way to neutralise Farage, a couple of dog-whistle briefings in the right ears (e.g. the politics desk at the Daily Mail) suggesting there is still the opportunity to walk away from the EU without any ongoing relationship at all, might make sense from a Tory strategist’s point of view.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:38 ----------

Also, Nigel’s policy isn’t going down entirely well with everyone in the Brexit party, where at least one or two people think he may have taken leave of his senses.

https://order-order.com/2019/11/04/s...disagreements/

Quote:
The Second Brexit Party Candidate of the day has announced he is standing down due to Farage’s anti-Brexit deal rhetoric – just hours after Farage announced his candidates in Central London…

Stephen Peddie – who until hours ago was the PPC for Tonbridge and Malling – quit the party, saying “We have ‘a’ Brexit only because of Farage. That doesn’t make it his to destroy along with our country. I’ve quit as a PPC in exasperation”.
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Old 04-11-2019, 17:50   #220
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
You evidently do not know or else you'd have got the terminology right. Despite all the cuts to date, and masses of privatisation over the recent decades, it'll still a deficit.

Essentially, you want to eliminate the role of the state to privatise as much as possible so profits can be siphoned offshore. At least be honest about your Ideology and not pretend it is anyone's interest.
I see your pedantry has not gone away, jfman. Of course I understand the difference between the deficit and the national debt. 'Paid off' may not be the appropriate turn of phrase, but I'm sure that most people on here knew what I meant.

The deficit has now come down to manageable levels, which means we can start to actually reduce the debt rather than continue to increase it.

I don't know where you get the idea that I want to eliminate the role of the state. I have never said that. I believe in a mixed economy. However, the role of the state should be kept under control and should not be allowed to proliferate. There are things the state does well and there are things the privatised sector does better. We should use whichever method is more efficient.
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Old 04-11-2019, 17:59   #221
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 View Post
So the penny has eventually dropped. As nomadking, myself and other leave supporters have been trying to tell you. The WA is not a deal, never has been, never will be.
The penny never left the floor, so didn't need to drop - that's why there was a period after the exit to make a deal.
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Old 04-11-2019, 18:13   #222
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
I see your pedantry has not gone away, jfman. Of course I understand the difference between the deficit and the national debt. 'Paid off' may not be the appropriate turn of phrase, but I'm sure that most people on here knew what I meant.

The deficit has now come down to manageable levels, which means we can start to actually reduce the debt rather than continue to increase it.

I don't know where you get the idea that I want to eliminate the role of the state. I have never said that. I believe in a mixed economy. However, the role of the state should be kept under control and should not be allowed to proliferate. There are things the state does well and there are things the privatised sector does better. We should use whichever method is more efficient.
Iím not being pedantic for the sake of it, however if people donít understand macroeconomic concepts itís a reasonable stance to take that they donít understand macroeconomics.

Itís much easier, and obviously accurate, to use the phrase ďreduced the deficitĒ than introduce ďpaying offĒ as inaccurate terminology.

We arenít reducing debt either. The national debt is the highest it has ever been.
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Old 04-11-2019, 18:39   #223
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Youíre out of step with much of the world, where simple majority is the rule in the vast majority of cases. Where that is qualified, it is usually done so via a quorum or in federal systems by requiring a yes vote in a majority of states also.

https://researchbriefings.files.parl...09/SN02809.pdf



Yet the Lib Dems declared it a baby step in the right direction and campaigned for Yes.

I am sceptical that most of the British electorate saw the question in so technical terms as the reform campaigner cited at Wikiwand and am content that as an exercise in determining appetite for change, the referendum adequately showed that the British electorate are sufficiently happy with the present system to leave it as is.

In the 2017 election, despite the plurality of parties available, well over 80% of all votes went to either Labour or Conservative.
Not so. The use of the Supermajority is common across the world for important, high impact decisions - see https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Supermaj...ound_the_world

The major lesson learnt here is that the approach the UK took to this referendum was deeply flawed.

You last point is self evident: in a FPTP system, of course the two main parties would get the majority of the votes. That is the natural evolution of such an electoral system.

---------- Post added at 17:39 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I think he was highlighting Hypocrisy full stop.
and that many, including members on this forum, are content with.
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Old 04-11-2019, 18:40   #224
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I’m not being pedantic for the sake of it, however if people don’t understand macroeconomic concepts it’s a reasonable stance to take that they don’t understand macroeconomics.

It’s much easier, and obviously accurate, to use the phrase “reduced the deficit” than introduce “paying off” as inaccurate terminology.

We aren’t reducing debt either. The national debt is the highest it has ever been.
Yes, yes, you've made a point about terminology, but you have assumed too much and you have taken this much too far. You need to calm yourself.

The Conservatives have in fact indicated that they are now in a position to bring down the national debt, which is what I was referring to. I've already explained why the national debt is so high.
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Old 04-11-2019, 19:48   #225
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Re: Election 2019, Week 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
Not so. The use of the Supermajority is common across the world for important, high impact decisions - see https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Supermaj...ound_the_world

The major lesson learnt here is that the approach the UK took to this referendum was deeply flawed.
You are factually incorrect. The UK's approach was perfectly standard, evidence based and well supported by research.

There is some relevant discussion here, from the Scottish Parliament, where such things are obviously of ongoing interest:

Quote:
http://www.parliament.scot/ResearchB.../PB19-1754.pdf

The Constitution Society argued in written evidence to the Independent Commission on Referendums that the UK’s ‘strong majoritarian tradition’ meant that referendum thresholds would be unlikely to command public support. The Independent Commission on Referendums noted in its report that “Though supermajority thresholds are used in legislatures in many countries for constitutional amendments...they are strikingly rare in referendums”. The Commission’s report recommended against the use of supermajority or thresholds in referendums in the UK.
Quote:
You last point is self evident: in a FPTP system, of course the two main parties would get the majority of the votes. That is the natural evolution of such an electoral system
The strength of the system is that it forces major political parties to become broad coalitions. Arguments over policy take place within these parties prior to an election, and a manifesto is produced which the winning party can then be judged against.

Proportional systems encourage fragmentation of politics into narrow interest groups which then fight for influence after an election. The policy programme of the resulting coalition government is the result of closed-doors negotiations that take place after the election. It becomes increasingly difficult to hold any of the participants to account; it also becomes more difficult for the electorate to choose a radically different direction at the following election because many of the same small parties will still be courted for their support, in return for implementing aspects of their own agendas, even though those agendas received minimal electoral support.

Mass participation in a two party system is, I believe, better than the endless rainbow coalitions of PR.
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