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Brexit Development(s) Discussion
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Old 08-10-2019, 12:39   #1096
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
In answer to your final question, probably, yes.

Literally the island of Ireland voted for independence and we partitioned it.
So what ongoing impositions, like the backstop, were placed on Ireland? Which laws were ignored without being legally and fairly changed?
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Old 08-10-2019, 12:47   #1097
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
No-one's trying to 'trash the country' apart from the Corbynistas. A Brexit without a withdrawal agreement is not the disaster you and other remainers are trying to convince people it will be.

The majority want to leave the EU, and this is a majority decision. If the EU won't co-operate, we leave without a deal. It's time all remainers accepted that. Enough of the nonsense, let's just get on with it. After it happens, people will start to wonder what all the fuss was about.

The planes will not fall from the sky. You will still be able to holiday in Europe. The food and medicines will be available as usual. Etc.
You can't actually evidence that any of your prediction is true. Stick to predicting the imminent death of linear television, it's got marginally more credibility. Marginally.

Nobody has said we won't be able to holiday, only that it'll be more expensive to do so. This is true already. Nor has anyone predicted planes falling from the sky. You are conflating genuine risk with the ridiculous to try and minimise its importance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
So what ongoing impositions, like the backstop, were placed on Ireland? Which laws were ignored without being legally and fairly changed?
The literal existence of Northern Ireland.

Last edited by jfman; 08-10-2019 at 12:59.
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Old 08-10-2019, 14:47   #1098
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post

Literally the island of Ireland voted for independence and we partitioned it.

The literal existence of Northern Ireland.
You need to go back to school.
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Old 08-10-2019, 14:58   #1099
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
You need to go back to school.
I don't. Ireland voted for independence. Got partitioned by Britain. I'd invite you to point out what part isn't true but don't want to sidetrack the discussion further.

Ironic that is why we are now in this mess, trying to protect our crumbled Empire.
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:03   #1100
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Currently as EU members we are subject to the EU four freedoms and operating on a legal & trading framework acceptable to the EU and the UK..

When we leave we hope to shed the Freedom Of Movement requirement and the legal and trading frameworks may well be different and these are the barriers to our deal with the EU.

The problems with immigration were mainly due to the government failing to deal with the consequences of immigration like shortages of doctors, dentists, teachers, appropriate school places, jobs and affordable housing, all things that the government could address.

To satisfy the EU, Boris will need to remove the Freedom Of Movement red line thus allowing the people of Ireland & Ulster to move freely between both areas.

He will also need to equalise the legal & trading conditions on both sides of the Irish border so that, rights, responsibilities, procedures, protocols etc are the same, with the exception that issues raised in Ireland will be dealt with by the EU courts and issues in Ulster will be dealt with by the UK courts. When the same issue is raised in both areas, an Arbitration panel consisting say of 2 EU judges & 2 UK judges would look at the issue and try to find a mutually acceptable & legal solution. In effect, trading will just be as if we were still in the EU but the EU jurisdiction will only apply in Ireland as the UK jurisdiction will be in Ulster.

Given the bullying, bull-in-a china-shop tactics used by Boris, he has not only upset our EU friends but he has also failed to renegotiate our exit, apparently aiming to leave the EU at all costs without really trying to make a deal. He may well find leaving the EU like that to be satisfactory but there are plenty of poor people & businesses who will not. The massive borrowing required will not only put us further in debt but will also bring further years of austerity which can be avoided,

My bet is that neither he or Stephen Barclay have even asked the EU if such changes would make a difference and until he does he cannot really say that no deal is the only option.

I will also bet than no journalists have questioned Boris , Michel Barnier or Donald Tusk about discussing such changes in the Brexit negotiations.

Given the repeated requests from the EU for written proposals, it is the UK government which is at fault for belatedly supplying the ill thought-out proposals recently submitted.

No-one in government seems to be asking what the EU concerns are and as we do not know what they are how can the government address them.

The whole process has been a shambles from start to finish. Lots of ordinary people will suffer if we crash out of the EU like this.

I can only hope that all politicians involved will use some common sense and bring this deal to a successful conclusion.
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:03   #1101
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
You can't actually evidence that any of your prediction is true. Stick to predicting the imminent death of linear television, it's got marginally more credibility. Marginally.

Nobody has said we won't be able to holiday, only that it'll be more expensive to do so. This is true already. Nor has anyone predicted planes falling from the sky. You are conflating genuine risk with the ridiculous to try and minimise its importance.

The literal existence of Northern Ireland.
NI specifically voted for it at the time, ie independence from Ireland.
Quote:
On 7 December 1922 the houses of the Parliament of Northern Ireland approved an address to George V, requesting that its territory not be included in the Irish Free State.
...
The Free State was renamed "Ireland" in its new constitution of 1937, which claimed jurisdiction over the entire island.
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:12   #1102
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I don't. Ireland voted for independence. Got partitioned by Britain. I'd invite you to point out what part isn't true but don't want to sidetrack the discussion further.

Ironic that is why we are now in this mess, trying to protect our crumbled Empire.
When did Ireland vote for independence? Link please.

Meanwhile you may wish to read this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Ireland
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:15   #1103
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntluser View Post
Currently as EU members we are subject to the EU four freedoms and operating on a legal & trading framework acceptable to the EU and the UK..

When we leave we hope to shed the Freedom Of Movement requirement and the legal and trading frameworks may well be different and these are the barriers to our deal with the EU.

The problems with immigration were mainly due to the government failing to deal with the consequences of immigration like shortages of doctors, dentists, teachers, appropriate school places, jobs and affordable housing, all things that the government could address.

To satisfy the EU, Boris will need to remove the Freedom Of Movement red line thus allowing the people of Ireland & Ulster to move freely between both areas.

He will also need to equalise the legal & trading conditions on both sides of the Irish border so that, rights, responsibilities, procedures, protocols etc are the same, with the exception that issues raised in Ireland will be dealt with by the EU courts and issues in Ulster will be dealt with by the UK courts. When the same issue is raised in both areas, an Arbitration panel consisting say of 2 EU judges & 2 UK judges would look at the issue and try to find a mutually acceptable & legal solution. In effect, trading will just be as if we were still in the EU but the EU jurisdiction will only apply in Ireland as the UK jurisdiction will be in Ulster.

Given the bullying, bull-in-a china-shop tactics used by Boris, he has not only upset our EU friends but he has also failed to renegotiate our exit, apparently aiming to leave the EU at all costs without really trying to make a deal. He may well find leaving the EU like that to be satisfactory but there are plenty of poor people & businesses who will not. The massive borrowing required will not only put us further in debt but will also bring further years of austerity which can be avoided,

My bet is that neither he or Stephen Barclay have even asked the EU if such changes would make a difference and until he does he cannot really say that no deal is the only option.

I will also bet than no journalists have questioned Boris , Michel Barnier or Donald Tusk about discussing such changes in the Brexit negotiations.

Given the repeated requests from the EU for written proposals, it is the UK government which is at fault for belatedly supplying the ill thought-out proposals recently submitted.

No-one in government seems to be asking what the EU concerns are and as we do not know what they are how can the government address them.

The whole process has been a shambles from start to finish. Lots of ordinary people will suffer if we crash out of the EU like this.

I can only hope that all politicians involved will use some common sense and bring this deal to a successful conclusion.
A pretty much spot on analysis.
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:20   #1104
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntluser View Post
To satisfy the EU, Boris will need to remove the Freedom Of Movement red line thus allowing the people of Ireland & Ulster to move freely between both areas.

This isn't the issue as we already have that pre-EU. It's physical goods that are the issue.
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:23   #1105
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone View Post
A pretty much spot on analysis.
A lot of disaster capitalists will be rich though!
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:27   #1106
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post

A lot of disaster capitalists will be rich though!
Indeed as the ones who get hit the hardest will be those at the bottom of the pile as usual.
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:31   #1107
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntluser View Post
Currently as EU members we are subject to the EU four freedoms and operating on a legal & trading framework acceptable to the EU and the UK..

When we leave we hope to shed the Freedom Of Movement requirement and the legal and trading frameworks may well be different and these are the barriers to our deal with the EU.

The problems with immigration were mainly due to the government failing to deal with the consequences of immigration like shortages of doctors, dentists, teachers, appropriate school places, jobs and affordable housing, all things that the government could address.

To satisfy the EU, Boris will need to remove the Freedom Of Movement red line thus allowing the people of Ireland & Ulster to move freely between both areas.

He will also need to equalise the legal & trading conditions on both sides of the Irish border so that, rights, responsibilities, procedures, protocols etc are the same, with the exception that issues raised in Ireland will be dealt with by the EU courts and issues in Ulster will be dealt with by the UK courts. When the same issue is raised in both areas, an Arbitration panel consisting say of 2 EU judges & 2 UK judges would look at the issue and try to find a mutually acceptable & legal solution. In effect, trading will just be as if we were still in the EU but the EU jurisdiction will only apply in Ireland as the UK jurisdiction will be in Ulster.

Given the bullying, bull-in-a china-shop tactics used by Boris, he has not only upset our EU friends but he has also failed to renegotiate our exit, apparently aiming to leave the EU at all costs without really trying to make a deal. He may well find leaving the EU like that to be satisfactory but there are plenty of poor people & businesses who will not. The massive borrowing required will not only put us further in debt but will also bring further years of austerity which can be avoided,

My bet is that neither he or Stephen Barclay have even asked the EU if such changes would make a difference and until he does he cannot really say that no deal is the only option.

I will also bet than no journalists have questioned Boris , Michel Barnier or Donald Tusk about discussing such changes in the Brexit negotiations.

Given the repeated requests from the EU for written proposals, it is the UK government which is at fault for belatedly supplying the ill thought-out proposals recently submitted.

No-one in government seems to be asking what the EU concerns are and as we do not know what they are how can the government address them.

The whole process has been a shambles from start to finish. Lots of ordinary people will suffer if we crash out of the EU like this.

I can only hope that all politicians involved will use some common sense and bring this deal to a successful conclusion.
Load of nonsense. Technically the exit is a done deal. Either way it's meant to happen. There is the "deal" which the WA, which is "transitional, and unambiguously limited in time", and then there is the "deal", which is in the future after the WA and is not allowed to be even negotiated yet until after we've left the EU. Will people stop mixing the 2 up. With the WA "deal" we "crash" out anyway, just at the end of next year instead.



The UK Parliament won't say what they would agree to, and the EU won't budge. Anything allegedly of concern to the EU comes after the end of the transitional phase of the WA, which the WA is not allowed to deal with.


Now with the Benn act, the UK Parliament and Ireland are never in a million years going to agree to anything. They'll keep moving the goalposts. They've been given a loaded gun and have itchy trigger fingers.
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:35   #1108
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Emotive terminology there. The Benn Act does no such thing. Johnson is obliged to ask for an extension once. That's it. It doesn't stop Britain leaving without a deal after that extension elapses.
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:50   #1109
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
This isn't the issue as we already have that pre-EU. It's physical goods that are the issue.
It will be interesting to hear how goods are currently being moved from Ireland to Ulster.

I'm guessing that as the legal & trading frameworks on either side of the Irish border are the same because we are currently both EU members there are no checkpoints or few checkpoints.

We need to recreate the same equal legal & trading frameworks but with Ireland answerable to EU courts & Ulster answerable to UK courts.

If everything else is equal both courts should arrive at the same verdict/conclusion with any issue raised.

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:40 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Load of nonsense. Technically the exit is a done deal. Either way it's meant to happen. There is the "deal" which the WA, which is "transitional, and unambiguously limited in time", and then there is the "deal", which is in the future after the WA and is not allowed to be even negotiated yet until after we've left the EU. Will people stop mixing the 2 up. With the WA "deal" we "crash" out anyway, just at the end of next year instead.



The UK Parliament won't say what they would agree to, and the EU won't budge. Anything allegedly of concern to the EU comes after the end of the transitional phase of the WA, which the WA is not allowed to deal with.


Now with the Benn act, the UK Parliament and Ireland are never in a million years going to agree to anything. They'll keep moving the goalposts. They've been given a loaded gun and have itchy trigger fingers.
So are you saying because of the WA, Boris is intending to leave the EU only to re-apply to the EU for a trade deal after we have left, or is he just intending to leave and not bother with a deal.

Not sure how well that will go down especially if Boris withholds the leaving money.

Last edited by ntluser; 08-10-2019 at 15:53. Reason: error
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Old 08-10-2019, 16:02   #1110
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntluser View Post
It will be interesting to hear how goods are currently being moved from Ireland to Ulster.

I'm guessing that as the legal & trading frameworks on either side of the Irish border are the same because we are currently both EU members there are no checkpoints or few checkpoints.

We need to recreate the same equal legal & trading frameworks but with Ireland answerable to EU courts & Ulster answerable to UK courts.

If everything else is equal both courts should arrive at the same verdict/conclusion with any issue raised.

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:40 ----------



So are you saying because of the WA, Boris is intending to leave the EU only to re-apply to the EU for a trade deal after we have left, or is he just intending to leave and not bother with a deal.

Not sure how well that will go down especially if Boris withholds the leaving money.
There is no application for a free trade deal at present. No discussions for a future deal untill a withdrawal agreement is reached or after we leave.
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