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Brexit Development(s) Discussion
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:53   #1846
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Itís good to be back.

Iím going to take a third spin of the dice to say I donít think we will leave the EU on 31st January.

Interesting weíd rather import NHS staff than train them.
Even the likes of Germany have to import medical staff from around the world. Even high spending Sweden has its problems.
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Sweden is struggling to recruit enough nurses for the summer period, with hospital staff numbers set to be strained.

Sweden's stretched healthcare has been a high-profile subject in recent years following stories about the scarcity of beds at hospitals and nurses raising concern about an increasingly tough workload.
...
Sweden's hospital beds shortage has been among the worst in Europe in recent years, according to official statistics. In 2015 it had 2.4 available beds per 1,000 people, according to the OECD, fewer than Ireland and the UK at 2.6 per 1,000.
But despite that and long waiting times, Sweden's overall standard of healthcare is generally considered high. It made the top-five best nations in the Healthcare Access and Quality Index (HAQ), which was published in the UK journal The Lancet in 2017 and studied the quality of healthcare in 195 countries by measuring mortality rates from causes that should not be fatal in the presence of effective medical care.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:58   #1847
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Even the likes of Germany have to import medical staff from around the world. Even high spending Sweden has its problems.
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I’m sure the poor, the unemployed and hard working underpaid NHS staff will take comfort at their opportunities and wages being stifled by people from overseas.

The fact EU member states do this will surely put them at ease.

Interestingly England were 23rd in the Healthcare Access and Quality Index, so clearly there’s work to be done. Employment opportunities for people here, paying taxes here and not for people sending half their wages back from wherever they came from.

Last edited by jfman; 08-11-2019 at 13:04.
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Old 08-11-2019, 16:48   #1848
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Itís good to be back.

Iím going to take a third spin of the dice to say I donít think we will leave the EU on 31st January.

Interesting weíd rather import NHS staff than train them.
Indeed, welcome back and to a near stagnant thread.

It takes a long time to train them (I hope that's happening and across the staff spectrum). Are we sure Brits are applying?

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Old 08-11-2019, 17:02   #1849
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

This is one of the reasons along with other reasons on why Brits don't apply.

https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-even...een-a-disaster
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Old 08-11-2019, 17:20   #1850
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
Indeed, welcome back and to a near stagnant thread.

It takes a long time to train them (I hope that's happening and across the staff spectrum). Are we sure Brits are applying?

Pay them more then. That's the point - we don't want our workers terms and conditions undermined by excess supply coming from overseas.

Or is this selective market designed to benefit the few, not the many?
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Old 08-11-2019, 17:27   #1851
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Pay them more then. That's the point - we don't want our workers terms and conditions undermined by excess supply coming from overseas.

Or is this selective market designed to benefit the few, not the many?
https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/

The nurse's pay guide.
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Old 08-11-2019, 17:37   #1852
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/

The nurse's pay guide.
I don't need to know how much a nurse is paid to apply the principles of supply and demand. There's excess demand, it should force prices up.

Except we are now, despite making a song and dance about freedom of movement having to end to support our workforce, importing a workforce?
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:16   #1853
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Getting a deal is not easy as you need to get the WAB done first and that's not proving easy!
Getting a deal should be easy. We've had two Withdrawal Agreements with the EU. It was the hung Parliament that failed to ratify it, remember?

As long as we get a Conservative majority after the election, we should be able to achieve what we want in about 12 months.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:23   #1854
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I don't need to know how much a nurse is paid to apply the principles of supply and demand. There's excess demand, it should force prices up.

Except we are now, despite making a song and dance about freedom of movement having to end to support our workforce, importing a workforce?
Quite right facts and a good rant don't go together.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:33   #1855
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Quite right facts and a good rant don't go together.
The facts are if we aren't paying enough we won't get the workforce from our own population. People will go and do something else.

Basic supply and demand.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:34   #1856
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I don't need to know how much a nurse is paid to apply the principles of supply and demand. There's excess demand, it should force prices up.

Except we are now, despite making a song and dance about freedom of movement having to end to support our workforce, importing a workforce?
Any shortages are not in all areas, and freedom of movement also means letting in the dross and various criminals. That adds further to any demand.


EG There was a documentary where a Slovakian couple came here with twenty-two of their children and grandchildren. Taking up multiple houses in Rotherham, where it was claimed that there were 6,000 Slovakians(or perhaps Slovakia Roma more specifically) just in Rotherham. Of course they all now had to be supported by benefits, NHS, interpreters, welfare advisors, etc. Their contribution to the UK was less than zilch. Of course Slovakia benefited from our losses.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:47   #1857
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Any shortages are not in all areas, and freedom of movement also means letting in the dross and various criminals. That adds further to any demand.


EG There was a documentary where a Slovakian couple came here with twenty-two of their children and grandchildren. Taking up multiple houses in Rotherham, where it was claimed that there were 6,000 Slovakians(or perhaps Slovakia Roma more specifically) just in Rotherham. Of course they all now had to be supported by benefits, NHS, interpreters, welfare advisors, etc. Their contribution to the UK was less than zilch. Of course Slovakia benefited from our losses.
That's a side issue.

Why are we, having decided to take your stance, undermining the terms and conditions of hard working nurses? Why aren't we training our unemployed?

Why can foreigners come for nurses jobs and drive down wages but not yours or mine?
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:49   #1858
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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The facts are if we aren't paying enough we won't get the workforce from our own population. People will go and do something else.

Basic supply and demand.
So what other high paying jobs are they going into? That for me is the unexplained mystery. They know the pay levels and conditions before they even start the degree course.

The central problem with employment pf medical staff, is that they know there is always locum work readily available because they have resigned from the NHS. Difficult to clamp down down on, but needs doing as the situation isn't going to improve any other way. GPs can be paid so much, that they can retire early or work part-time. Again a situation that cannot be sustained.

It was highlighted back in 1980 that the increase in the number of women training to be doctors was going to be a problem. Somebody from the medical school at Birmingham, pointed out that it took twice as many women to be trained to end up with a trained female doctor, than it took men to end up with a male doctor. That was because so many women dropped out or didn't continue. Probably nowadays that isn't so severe, but that impact will still be there.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:52   #1859
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post

Why can foreigners come for nurses jobs and drive down wages but not yours or mine?
Depends what job you have.

Foreign footballers don't seem to have driven wages down, on the other hand it seems the construction trade has been hit badly
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:56   #1860
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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So what other high paying jobs are they going into? That for me is the unexplained mystery. They know the pay levels and conditions before they even start the degree course.
You donít need to know - if you offer higher wages and better terms and conditions it stands to reason youíll get more applicants.

Quote:
The central problem with employment pf medical staff, is that they know there is always locum work readily available because they have resigned from the NHS. Difficult to clamp down down on, but needs doing as the situation isn't going to improve any other way. GPs can be paid so much, that they can retire early or work part-time. Again a situation that cannot be sustained.

Now we need to reduce the pay and working conditions of GPs?

Utterly astonishing.

Quote:
It was highlighted back in 1980 that the increase in the number of women training to be doctors was going to be a problem. Somebody from the medical school at Birmingham, pointed out that it took twice as many women to be trained to end up with a trained female doctor, than it took men to end up with a male doctor. That was because so many women dropped out or didn't continue. Probably nowadays that isn't so severe, but that impact will still be there.
Women back to the kitchens?

What a truly progressive future youíve outlined here.
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