Brexit (Old)

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

BREAKING: Tory MP Will Quince has resigned as a parliamentary private secretary over Theresa May's Brexit deal

Who ??? Another nobody.

Rats, sinking ship etc......

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Who ??? Another nobody.

Rats, sinking ship etc......

At this point it’s not the names, it’s the numbers. This Government cannot govern.

Strategically losing the confidence vote and making Corbyn force remain (via 2nd ref) might be the best strategy for the Tories.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by jfman

At this point it’s not the names, it’s the numbers. This Government cannot govern.

Strategically losing the confidence vote and making Corbyn force remain (via 2nd ref) might be the best strategy for the Tories.

Mmmm, maybe it is a cunning master plan..... Slowly but surely Brexit dies. Cunning old fox TM

Originally Posted by Mr K

Mmmm, maybe it is a cunning master plan..... Slowly but surely Brexit dies. Cunning old fox TM

Brexit won’t die. Not when there is still millions of people who want to leave the corrupt empire. The fact you want democracy to die is pathetic.

Saw quite a few Frexit signs in the Paris protests today.... Anti-EU sentiment running high and by young people haha!!!

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mick

Brexit won’t die. Not when there is still millions of people who want to leave the corrupt empire. The fact you want democracy to die is pathetic.

Saw quite a few Frexit signs in the Paris protests today.... Anti-EU sentiment running high and by young people haha!!!

Nobody said they wanted democracy to die, however Brexit arguably isn’t a demonstration of democracy at all.

Protests in France aren’t because the EU is some Franco-German empire giving them control over the rest of us.

The fundamental problem is capitalism.

---------- Post added at 22:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:37 ----------

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...erendum-brexit

With the health warning that it’s the Guardian:

Cabinet split over second referendum. Will May be so bold as to rule out no deal and put her deal to the public vs remain? She might actually win, cement a legacy and crush division in her party at the same time.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Mick

Saw quite a few Frexit signs in the Paris protests today.... Anti-EU sentiment running high and by young people haha!!!

Now don't be daft Mick, you've been told time and time again that it's only the elderly (and dwindling) section of the population that want to quit the EU

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Carth

Now don't be daft Mick, you've been told time and time again that it's only the elderly (and dwindling) section of the population that want to quit the EU

Polling data in the UK consistently supports that.

It’s not actually verifiable that the EU is an issue with French protestors.

Originally Posted by jfman

Polling data in the UK consistently supports that.

It’s not actually verifiable that the EU is an issue with French protestors.

Poll Data suggests no such thing.

Emmanuel Macron disagrees with you, he said once not long ago that France would vote to leave, given the chance.

[jfman]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...-britain-voted

I shouldn’t have quoted a post that said “only” but it’s definitely skewed.

Protestors are upset at many things their own government is accountable for but will blame the EU.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Will May be so bold as to rule out no deal and put her deal to the public vs remain? She might actually win, cement a legacy and crush division in her party at the same time.

That is a false referendum as her deal is not Brexit.

I don’t she’ll do it. She’ll lose.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...-britain-voted

I shouldn’t have quoted a post that said “only” but it’s definitely skewed.

Protestors are upset at many things their own government is accountable for but will blame the EU.

That analysis of the stats can be all things to all men. For example, the selection of age groups; 25-49 is arbitrary. Yet it can significantly sway a reader’s impREssion. Just because car insurer’s penalise under-25s doesn’t put a 25 year old anywhere near the wisdom level of a 49 year old. I would like to see those stats banded by specific age so that a maturity trend can be sensibly deduced.

The way they are presented by YouGov puts older people into a bracket that is derided by younger people without definable reason.

That aside, I was in the 24-49 band when we joined the EEC and very pleased I was on that day. By the age of 49, it had become the EU and had morphed from a free trade association into the awful machine that has shown its true despicable colours since the Brexit Referendum.

Also during that time, Germany has played the creation of the Euro to its advantage so that they now have an illegal 8% GDP surplus and are too powerful (hegemonic) to be challenged by Brussels. As a result, that 8% surplus is paid for by the deficits in the rest of the Eurozone. It’s no coincidence that Germany and the UK are the largest net contributors to the EU budget - we have an independent currency and Germany owns the Euro.

As to immigration, I’m not stupid and I approve of free-movement of labour from the EU. I’m not against the Norway model either, provided that we are not in the CU. If we leave the CU, we have to adjust to the new situation and after trade deals have been arranged, including cheaper food, that will become the norm.

I’ll go and spoil it all now by saying that there are scores to settle with the perfidious Varadkar and that running dog Macron. I want to see them squirm as France loses access to our fishing waters other than on our terms. I want to see Varadkar squirm as Brussels orders him to establish customs posts and close the little roads; I’d like to see Brussels squirm as they alternatively break their own laws by not ordering that perfidious Varadkar to erect customs posts. I’d like to see New Zealand butter replace French and Irish butter (but I must have Lurpak unsalted or equivalent!).

As to a second referendum, it is as democratic to deliver the first Referendum result as it would be to hold a 2nd referendum. No referendum can be called undemocratic. But there are logical inconsistencies here. The first Referendum was binding; a second referendum can thus only be advisory. If a 2nd referendum occurs and the result is Remain, there is some negotiation to be done to get the EU to deliver on one part of the Cameron deal; namely no ever closer union and no Euro.

I’m tRying to show some realism here and would far prefer to leave the EU on a no deal basis given current circumstances.

I am ashamed of our politicians; they had a duty to deliver the Referendum and not try and defeat it, that being the height of using democracy to usurp democracy. The public are also ashamed of the politicians and where we go from here in parliamentary and party terms is anyone’s guess.

What a shambles. There is no god or he is Franco/Irish!

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

That is a false referendum as her deal is not Brexit.

I don’t she’ll do it. She’ll lose.

Will she care?

She's a remainer, and it scuppers the dreams and ambitions of those who were so desperate to knife her in the back. She remains the PM who took the difficult decisions, who actually negotiated a deal rather than snipe from the backbenches and gave it back to the people to make their mind up after Parliament refused to back her.

In a vote between May's deal and remain, she technically can't lose.

Originally Posted by jfman

Will she care?

She's a remainer, and it scuppers the dreams and ambitions of those who were so desperate to knife her in the back. She remains the PM who took the difficult decisions, who actually negotiated a deal rather than snipe from the backbenches and gave it back to the people to make their mind up after Parliament refused to back her.

In a vote between May's deal and remain, she technically can't lose.

Why do we need to give it back to the people - is that to...

• 1) Ignore the democratic decision taken in 2016, because YOU did not like the result?
  
• 2) Over turn the first vote because it was a decision made that YOU do not like?
  
• 3) Because you want to cause further uncertainty in your selfish determination to ignore democracy and over turn the democratic result taken in 2016?
  
• 4) Because you are selfish ?
  
• 5) You love abusing democracy ?
  
• 6) You want to destroy faith people have in democracy by ignoring a democratic decision taken in 2016.
  
• 7) You want to disrespect all the dead people who died to give us the freedoms of a true democratic nation ?
  
• 8) ALL THE ABOVE.

[denphone]

The knives are getting readied for Theresa May if as very likely she is going to lose the vote heavily on Tuesday.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...te-brexit-deal

Three Brexit-supporting former cabinet ministers have signalled in television interviews that they would be interested in running for the Conservative leadership if Theresa May is forced to resign after Tuesday night’s critical Brexit vote, in a sign of the prime minster’s crumbling authority.

Boris Johnson, Esther McVey and Dominic Raab all refused to rule out leadership bids and called on May to persuade the EU to ditch the backstop and withhold some of the £39bn divorce bill, though Brussels has said no further negotiation is possible.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mick

Why do we need to give it back to the people - is that to...

• 1) Ignore the democratic decision taken in 2016, because YOU did not like the result?
  
• 2) Over turn the first vote because it was a decision made that YOU do not like?
  
• 3) Because you want to cause further uncertainty in your selfish determination to ignore democracy and over turn the democratic result taken in 2016?
  
• 4) Because you are selfish ?
  
• 5) You love abusing democracy ?
  
• 6) You want to destroy faith people have in democracy by ignoring a democratic decision taken in 2016.
  
• 7) You want to disrespect all the dead people who died to give us the freedoms of a true democratic nation ?
  
• 8) ALL THE ABOVE.

Nobody died so we can have a bad Brexit deal.

In any case, I'm not going to get into the circular argument over should it go back to the people. I'm posting on the basis that I think it will go back to the people, whether I think it should or not is broadly irrelevant.