Will Scotland Leave the UK?

[jfman]

More speculation Old Boy. Your English nationalism is oozing out of you here.

Small countries had furlough schemes. Small countries have trains. Small countries have broadband.

No high speed rail in Scotland, and broadband is being supported by the Scottish Government ahead of Boris and his 2025/2033 commitment.

Originally Posted by jfman

A major international competitor that sees such great returns on investment and every pound of public expenditure that it can, allegedly, make billions in transfers to the other nations and regions shouldn't be too difficult to emulate.

The purpose of these transfers, other than propping up a neurotic and fragile English nationalism, is to prevent competition and keep those nations in check.

Assigning the neurotic and fragile nationalism to the English is a novel tactic, Ill grant you that.

Historically, Wales' incorporation into England was down to medieval feudalism, pure and simple. Were it not for geography facilitating the preservation of language and culture, there would probably be no nationalistic sense of Welshness today that could be said to be any stronger than the distinct regional sense of identity that exists in various parts of England - all of which were themselves feudally incorporated into a unitary state from pre-existing petty Kingdoms. Much the same is of course true within Scotland, as the Picts knew to their cost. Come to think of it, the Scots were much more effective at wiping out Brythonic culture in the land between the Antonine and Hadrian's walls than the English were in Wales.

The union between England and Scotland was the favourite idea of the Stuart monarchy, pretty much from the very day James VI went south, was crowned James I of England, and never went back to Scotland again. The logic of unitary control of this one island and its resources, and people whose entangled history means they have for 2,000 years had far more in common than not, predated even the Stuarts.

It was fragile, neurotic Scottish nationalism, and the assumption that an independent, foreign England would somehow favour Scotland above its other alliances, that led Scotland to economic ruin at Darien. Ironically that then forced Scots to confront the logic of union (the deal on the table from England being unite with us and we pay off your debts). The deal on the table wasn't half bad, for either party. It gave the English political influence over a bankrupt, chaotic northern neighbour. It gave the Scots political influence over a wealthy, powerful neighbour which from henceforth was compelled to consider Scotland as home territory rather than a foreign competitor. Scots gained immediate access to what were now British colonial possessions.

For centuries now, the whole territory has been governed as a unitary state, with its economy managed likewise as a single unit. Nonetheless, Scotland and England exist in parliamentary union, not as an amalgam, and Scotland's distinct legal identity is assured. For this reason, central government spending is identifiable as 'transfers' in Scotland in a way that it isn't when spending occurs in, say, Yorkshire. It is absurd that spending that is identified in this way because Scotland's identity is being consciously respected and assured, is somehow a symbol of English colonialism - a position that has no basis in either history or in current affairs.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

More speculation Old Boy. Your English nationalism is oozing out of you here.

Small countries had furlough schemes. Small countries have trains. Small countries have broadband.

No high speed rail in Scotland, and broadband is being supported by the Scottish Government ahead of Boris and his 2025/2033 commitment.

Your economics seems to be getting a little shaky, jfman.

By the way, you never did provide me with that link. Do you not have....any?

Not a fan/supporter of Scottish Independence, but don’t similar sized counties like Denmark, Croatia, New Zealand, Ireland, Finland, etc. manage economically?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Not a fan/supporter of Scottish Independence, but don’t similar sized counties like Denmark, Croatia, New Zealand, Ireland, Finland, etc. manage economically?

We're on the magic roundabout, we've done all this a dozen times. Yes, of course an independent Scotland could go it alone, but just because they could, does it mean they should.

If they do, they wont enjoy anything like the spending per head they do now. The numbers will be even worse than what I posted below in October.



https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=3509

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

A major international competitor that sees such great returns on investment and every pound of public expenditure that it can, allegedly, make billions in transfers to the other nations and regions shouldn't be too difficult to emulate.

The purpose of these transfers, other than propping up a neurotic and fragile English nationalism, is to prevent competition and keep those nations in check.

You accuse OB of speculation, but your quoted post is not only highly speculative (in both senses) but but full of wild assertions of English nationalism. Btw, English nationalism isn't necessary unless we want to secede from the UK.

Originally Posted by Pierre

We're on the magic roundabout, we've done all this a dozen times. Yes, of course an independent Scotland could go it alone, but just because they could, does it mean they should.

If they do, they wont enjoy anything like the spending per head they do now. The numbers will be even worse than what I posted below in October.



https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=3509

Then how do those other countries manage?

Isn’t it possible Scotland could emulate them?

[nashville]

I pray we never become Independent, SNP are a cult ready to destroy Scotland,

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Then how do those other countries manage?

Isn’t it possible Scotland could emulate them?

Plenty of opportunity for them to be doing that already, but they're not.


How much of their economy relies on easy access to England? Ireland is to receive over 1bn Euros from the EU because of Brexit. where would Scotland or Wales get that sort of money?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Then how do those other countries manage?

Isn’t it possible Scotland could emulate them?

Those other countries don't have another country subsidising their public spending.

As evidenced nobody is saying that Scotland couldn't go it alone, they could very easily they just won't be able to offer free prescriptions to everyone and free tuition etc etc.

They could still do that and continue to borrow at massive rate, they wouldn't enjoy the lower interest rates that the UK as a whole does.

Their currency would have to be pegged, most likely, to the Bank of England, so they couldn't really set their own fiscal policy, and likewise if they joined the Euro - which is far from certain.

They could do whatever they want......................it'll be fine.

[jfman]

You’re assuming Scotland would want to spend billions on Trident, a privatised track and trace system that doesn’t work, a high speed rail network in another country... etc.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by jfman

You’re assuming Scotland would want to spend billions on Trident, a privatised track and trace system that doesn’t work, a high speed rail network in another country... etc.

So it's back to spears and the horse and cart then, hope you kept the drawings for the wheel

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Then how do those other countries manage?

Isn’t it possible Scotland could emulate them?

But that isn’t the argument, Hugh. The argument is that there is a huge hole in the budget with the absence of the Barnett formula and all the other reasons set out above, and the SNP appear to have no idea how to fill it.

No-one is doubting that the Scots could survive on their own, but they will be much poorer as a result. The Scottish electorate need to know that before they enter their crosses.

---------- Post added at 19:46 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

You’re assuming Scotland would want to spend billions on Trident, a privatised track and trace system that doesn’t work, a high speed rail network in another country... etc.

They probably wouldn’t, but they will have to pay a lot of extra dole money with all those people they’d throw out of work. And you seem to forget, Scotland will have to fund its own defence, albeit a non-nuclear defence.

[Mad Max]

The hatred some Scots have for England drives their support for the SNP imo.

[OLD BOY]

No doubt about it, Max.