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Will Scotland Leave the UK?
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Old 08-08-2019, 20:25   #2986
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
Up to them though, not you, unless you're Scottish

They might do something radical like joining a bigger Union than the UK...
Such as? There would be a long wait to join the EU. Just getting their deficit to below 3% will take forever.
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Old 09-08-2019, 22:04   #2987
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by nashville View Post
Sick of the word Independence, We need to be all together as one nation. We could never survive on our own, I believe N S only cares about being the one to go down in history for breaking up Britain, There are plenty in Scotland think the same,
Same here, I really hate the SNP and everything they stand for. NS and the Muppet before her are just wanting independence at any cost.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:13   #2988
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
If people vote for the SNP they get to decide. That's politics in Edinburgh just as much as in London. If people want something else they should vote for someone else.

I don't know why it has to be a "landslide". Nobody uses that threshold to stop a Conservative manifesto on 40 per cent of the vote and minority of seats.

If you want to look at chaos look at London since June 2016.
Because it would be a constitutional change.

---------- Post added at 01:04 ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 ----------

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Originally Posted by nashville View Post
Sick of the word Independence, We need to be all together as one nation. We could never survive on our own, I believe N S only cares about being the one to go down in history for breaking up Britain, There are plenty in Scotland think the same,
England could survive on its own. Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland could not.

Someone needs to present the economic reality to Scots Nationalist voters.

If anyone seriously believes that Scotland could manage on its own, then why does the SNP keep bleating on about the Barnett Formula?

---------- Post added at 01:08 ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 ----------

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Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
Up to the Scottish people not politicians. Anyway,
we're breaking up from Europe, so why can't Scotland break away from the UK if they want? We could call it Scexit...

Really don't think the Brexit brigade have thought through all the consequences, Scottish independence being more likely is one.
Because the electorate voted to leave the EU, just as they voted for the UK to stay together.

What is it with you guys that time and again you want to ignore the will of the electorate? We do live in a democracy, you know.

The people have decided. The politicians need to note accordingly and implement. End of.

---------- Post added at 01:10 ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K View Post
Up to them though, not you, unless you're Scottish

They might do something radical like joining a bigger Union than the UK...
Not really. We are the United Kingdom and we should all have a say. If there are ever any more referendums on Scottish independence, we should all have a say.

---------- Post added at 01:13 ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 ----------

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Such as? There would be a long wait to join the EU. Just getting their deficit to below 3% will take forever.
Joining the EU and leaving the UK would not be in the interests of the Scots.

The independence from the UK argument is being pursued by those who hate the English, let's face it!
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:59   #2989
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Because it would be a constitutional change.

---------- Post added at 01:04 ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 ----------



England could survive on its own. Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland could not.

Someone needs to present the economic reality to Scots Nationalist voters.

If anyone seriously believes that Scotland could manage on its own, then why does the SNP keep bleating on about the Barnett Formula?

---------- Post added at 01:08 ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 ----------



Because the electorate voted to leave the EU, just as they voted for the UK to stay together.

What is it with you guys that time and again you want to ignore the will of the electorate? We do live in a democracy, you know.

The people have decided. The politicians need to note accordingly and implement. End of.

---------- Post added at 01:10 ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 ----------



Not really. We are the United Kingdom and we should all have a say. If there are ever any more referendums on Scottish independence, we should all have a say.

---------- Post added at 01:13 ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 ----------



Joining the EU and leaving the UK would not be in the interests of the Scots.

The independence from the UK argument is being pursued by those who hate the English, let's face it!
A constitutional change requires a landslide?

That’s just made up nonsense because you’re terrified of the Union crumbling.

The rest of the UK should have a say on Scottish independence? A threshold literally no independent nation has ever been held to, anywhere in the world?

As for ignoring the will of the electorate I’m not sure how that fits if the SNP are the largest party in the Scottish Parliament, and a majority of Scottish MPs? They’re literally the elected Government in Scotland implementing their manifesto pledge.

Laughably absurd but strangely unsurprising, Old Boy.

Last edited by jfman; 10-08-2019 at 07:06.
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:23   #2990
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Party manifestos cover a range of issues and are generally reversible by throwing out the party that implemented it after 5 years. Major constitutional change, such as Scotland breaking the union with England, is not reversible. It is not a policy on the same scale and with similar significance to, say, NHS funding and cannot properly be considered alongside it.

This was - belatedly - recognised for the first time in the British constitution by the holding of a confirmatory referendum after our joining of the EU. With referendums since held on Welsh and Scottish devolution (twice in Scotland), Scottish independence, the Westminster voting system and again on membership of the EU, it is now a well established precedent in our constitution that major changes to the constitution of the UK require the specific consent of the people to that specific issue.
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:30   #2991
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Party manifestos cover a range of issues and are generally reversible by throwing out the party that implemented it after 5 years. Major constitutional change, such as Scotland breaking the union with England, is not reversible. It is not a policy on the same scale and with similar significance to, say, NHS funding and cannot properly be considered alongside it.

This was - belatedly - recognised for the first time in the British constitution by the holding of a confirmatory referendum after our joining of the EU. With referendums since held on Welsh and Scottish devolution (twice in Scotland), Scottish independence, the Westminster voting system and again on membership of the EU, it is now a well established precedent in our constitution that major changes to the constitution of the UK require the specific consent of the people to that specific issue.
I agree. The manifesto commitment (holding a referendum) isnít major constitutional change in itself though,
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:41   #2992
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I agree. The manifesto commitment (holding a referendum) isn’t major constitutional change in itself though,
But being prepared to honour a "Yes" decision is. By allowing a vote on something, by implication you are saying the result will be honoured and implemented. More than a little bit disingenuous to say "we don't like the result, so we're going to do the opposite". A democratic country ceases to be democratic, if it ignores a democratic vote.
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:56   #2993
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
But being prepared to honour a "Yes" decision is. By allowing a vote on something, by implication you are saying the result will be honoured and implemented. More than a little bit disingenuous to say "we don't like the result, so we're going to do the opposite". A democratic country ceases to be democratic, if it ignores a democratic vote.
Parties get the opportunity to stand on manifestos every few years. Elections held are democratic. Itís their prerogative to push the referendum as often as they please. If people continue to vote for them I donít see what the issue is.

Itís just fear that the entire UK will collapse from unionists but I donít think thatís anything to worry about either. Itís solves Englandís identity crisis in one go.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:20   #2994
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Parties get the opportunity to stand on manifestos every few years. Elections held are democratic. Itís their prerogative to push the referendum as often as they please. If people continue to vote for them I donít see what the issue is.

Itís just fear that the entire UK will collapse from unionists but I donít think thatís anything to worry about either. Itís solves Englandís identity crisis in one go.
England has the least to fear as this is the beating heart of the economy. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would not be able to survive alone without impoverishment of the population.

England does stand stronger as part of the UK, but if it were to be on its own because all the regions separated from the UK, it would no longer have to bail them out and England would come through.

England would also benefit from a significant reduction of any future threat of a Labour Government.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:25   #2995
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Parties get the opportunity to stand on manifestos every few years. Elections held are democratic. Itís their prerogative to push the referendum as often as they please. If people continue to vote for them I donít see what the issue is.

Itís just fear that the entire UK will collapse from unionists but I donít think thatís anything to worry about either. Itís solves Englandís identity crisis in one go.
Elections are only democratic if the result influences the outcome. If instead the outcome depends on the opinion of certain self-selecting people, then the vote isn't democratic.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:28   #2996
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Can the English have a referendum on kicking Scotland out?

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Old 10-08-2019, 11:36   #2997
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
England has the least to fear as this is the beating heart of the economy. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would not be able to survive alone without impoverishment of the population.

England does stand stronger as part of the UK, but if it were to be on its own because all the regions separated from the UK, it would no longer have to bail them out and England would come through.

England would also benefit from a significant reduction of any future threat of a Labour Government.
Then why are you so concerned about it?

---------- Post added at 10:35 ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 ----------

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Can the English have a referendum on kicking Scotland out?

Gladly.

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 ----------

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Elections are only democratic if the result influences the outcome. If instead the outcome depends on the opinion of certain self-selecting people, then the vote isn't democratic.
Eh? Thatís representative democracy around the globe. Why should Scotland be any different?
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:06   #2998
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Then why are you so concerned about it?

---------- Post added at 10:35 ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 ----------



Gladly.

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 ----------



Eh? Thatís representative democracy around the globe. Why should Scotland be any different?
A single issue referendum isn't anything to do with representative democracy. That is why there was an EU referendum. The issue crossed party lines. There was no other way for people to have a definitive say on the matter.
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:15   #2999
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
A single issue referendum isn't anything to do with representative democracy. That is why there was an EU referendum. The issue crossed party lines. There was no other way for people to have a definitive say on the matter.
Yes, Iím not disagreeing. However if a party puts in a commitment for a referendum and forms a government then itís entitled to hold one.

This ďonce in a generationĒ nonsense - and yes Iím aware SNP people said it - is just sentimental claptrap. In a functioning democracy a party that governs can hold a referendum. If that outcome is different from a previous one on the same issue then fine the people have changed their mind.
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Old 10-08-2019, 15:28   #3000
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I agree. The manifesto commitment (holding a referendum) isn’t major constitutional change in itself though,
True, but the social upheaval is significant. The political debate in Scotland has become quite poisonous since 2014, and the referendum campaign itself was not without its financial cost, not to mention how much of the day to day running of government simply didn’t happen for about 18 months in the run up (nor for long spells afterwards, while the SNP devoted all its time to trying to engineer sufficient grievance to justify round 2 - at one point Holyrood went about 14 months without enacting a single piece of primary legislation, except the finance bill).

The SNP does not have a majority of seats in Holyrood and they have only able to progress any votes on a further referendum with support from the Greens. The SNP’s manifesto commitment to push for a second referendum in the event of any significant change in circumstances (with Brexit given as a specific example) breached the undertaking they made during the 2014 referendum campaign that this was, unqualified, a once-in-a generation, if not once a lifetime, event.

So you can argue that the SNP’s manifesto is a clear mandate for them, even if it’s a breach of trust, however, crucially, it’s the Green manifesto that’s the spanner in the works. Their manifesto stated very clearly the conditions under which a second referendum should be held; they called for a petitioning process that enabled a second referendum only to be called by direct will of the people and specifically ruled out questions of “party political advantage”.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/0...king-sturgeon/

So there are essentially two strands at work here as I see it.

1. SNP and Green between them have a majority of seats at Holyrood but based on both their manifestos, as voted on in the last Holyrood general election, they do not have a majority of seats that were won on a commitment to a second referendum, in this parliament, to be called by vote of MSPs.

2. The British Parliament is sovereign in all constitutional matters and that sovereignty carries with it a responsibility to ensure stability and good governance. Regardless of manifesto commitments made in a Scottish election, a divisive constitutional referendum must be a decisive, once and for all event, or else government becomes consumed permanently by one single issue. That has been the case in Scotland since late 2013 and it has become the case across the UK recently too.

The UK government, supervised by Parliament, has every right to tell the Scottish nationalists to do one and not to change that position until conditions dictate otherwise. I more or less agree with the Scottish Green manifesto here - there must be sustained evidence of a change of heart in Scotland before we submit ourselves to it again. Thus far, there is no sustained evidence of any change, and never has been. Yes majority polls like the one released last week occur from time to time but they are always isolated.
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