UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’ve no issue with the USA controlling migration effectively if it’s done in a humane way. Hell even the left wing part of me likes large state funded projects. It’s not an effective way to do it though - given it’ll be a fence for the most part a Mexican with wire cutters is on his way. It’s a big expensive dog whistle to his racist supporters.

Nor am I complaining about the integrity of the EU border - we voted to leave and establish a border - I don’t see why they should make it easier for us to do so by allowing us to ignore our obligations to prevent smuggling over the border.

I really don’t know why people who understand the dangers of the movement of people over borders so well can’t understand the dangers of the illegal supply of cheap, substandard goods.

Cheap, substandard goods ALREADY get into the UK and EU. Are following UK rules going to lead to cheap, substandard goods? We ALREADY have to accept EU goods that we consider substandard because they follow lower set EU rules.


Not sure that the backstop is legal in terms of Article 50 and the Withdrawal Agreement. The WA is an optional interim phase to LEAVING. The backstop is not interim, and at the very least extends beyond the period covered by the WA. Any backstop related issues are the subject of the SECOND SEPARATE deal/agreement.

Link

Two agreements
The EU and the UK have two years to negotiate a withdrawal agreement setting out the arrangements for how the country will leave the Union, while “taking account of the framework of the future relationship with the Union”. The arrangements setting out the framework for future relations will be part of a separate agreement, which could take considerably longer to negotiate.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Cheap, substandard goods ALREADY get into the UK and EU. Are following UK rules going to lead to cheap, substandard goods? We ALREADY have to accept EU goods that we consider substandard because they follow lower set EU rules.

Do we plan to raise standards? Can we guarantee this?

Not sure that the backstop is legal in terms of Article 50 and the Withdrawal Agreement. The WA is an optional interim phase to LEAVING. The backstop is not interim, and at the very least extends beyond the period covered by the WA. Any backstop related issues are the subject of the SECOND SEPARATE deal/agreement.

Link

If it wasn’t legal it wouldn’t exist as an idea. They wouldn’t, with the best will in the world, be relying on you to discover it.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by jfman

Do we plan to raise standards? Can we guarantee this?



If it wasn’t legal it wouldn’t exist as an idea. They wouldn’t, with the best will in the world, be relying on you to discover it.

Its an idea that has been rejected several times by parliament.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Its an idea that has been rejected several times by parliament.

And? They’ve rejected no deal too and that doesn’t count for much.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Probably if Boris can't get us out on 31-October.

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------



... and what's more, Cameron said publicly that the choice was to remain in the EU or "leave altogether".

He also said he would remain at Downing Street regardless of the result of the EU referendum.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by jfman

And? They’ve rejected no deal too and that doesn’t count for much.

And would that be because they do not wish to honour the the result of a referendum that they decided they would by passing the withdrawal act?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by pip08456

And would that be because they do not wish to honour the the result of a referendum that they decided they would by passing the withdrawal act?

Circular argument. Honouring the referendum result doesn’t have an arbitrary time limit.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Do we plan to raise standards? Can we guarantee this?

If it wasn’t legal it wouldn’t exist as an idea. They wouldn’t, with the best will in the world, be relying on you to discover it.

It is illegal unless they've changed the definition of "transitional" and "limited in time", along with "unambiguously". It certainly is outside the remit of any Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement.

From my previous link

Any transitional agreement must unambiguously be limited in time;

We are unlikely to lower standards that much, if at all. Other countries have lower standards and they export to the EU.


AFAIK At the moment we can set higher standards for UK producers, but we still have to accept imports from the EU that are below that standard. Eg in the past we tried to block UHT milk from France that didn't meet our standards. The EU said we had to accept it, because it met EU standards.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

It is illegal unless they've changed the definition of "transitional" and "limited in time", along with "unambiguously". It certainly is outside the remit of any Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement.

From my previous link

We are unlikely to lower standards that much, if at all. Other countries have lower standards and they export to the EU.

Export legally, and presumably products that adhere to EU standards?

I note you’re use of “we are unlikely”; that isn’t certain. The EU Single Market will not survive if it’s to be left with what you consider likely not or otherwise.

AFAIK At the moment we can set higher standards for UK producers, but we still have to accept imports from the EU that are below that standard. Eg in the past we tried to block UHT milk from France that didn't meet our standards. The EU said we had to accept it, because it met EU standards.

Do we hold our values high enough to set UK standards above EU ones at present?

Grateful for examples of this, if we do.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Export legally, and presumably products that adhere to EU standards?

I note you’re use of “we are unlikely”; that isn’t certain. The EU Single Market will not survive if it’s to be left with what you consider likely not or otherwise.



Do we hold our values high enough to set UK standards above EU ones at present?

Grateful for examples of this, if we do.

Doesn't matter one little jot whether our current or future standards are lower or higher. The EU copes with differences at the moment.

Regulatory differences
Highlights of the document include:

• Sow stalls, banned in the UK in 1999 and partially banned across most of the rest of the EU, are still legally permitted in the US, Canada and Brazil
• In the UK, 40% of sows are outdoors and 90% of indoor sows and 60% of finishing pigs are kept on straw. But very few, if any, pigs are kept outdoors or on straw indoors in the rest of the EU, apart from in Sweden, or the rest of the world

Danish welfare legislation and standards
Although Danish animal welfare legislation is linked to EU Directives, in many areas it exceeds these requirements. Some examples include the mandatory provision of showering systems for most categories of pigs and requirements for fixed or drained flooring rather than the more traditional type of fully slatted floor. In addition, there are specific requirements for hospital pens and vehicles for transporting pigs.

The net result is that animal welfare conditions in the Union fall short of a level playing field which is required to sustain the enormous economic activity that drives the treatment of animals in the European Union” (European Commission, 2012).

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

Do we hold our values high enough to set UK standards above EU ones at present?

Grateful for examples of this, if we do.

Queuing at bus stops. Driving on the correct side of the road. Apologising to those who barge into us.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Doesn't matter one little jot whether our current or future standards are lower or higher. The EU copes with differences at the moment.

Differences controlled across maintained borders, using customs inspections, etc.

Not what we are proposing long term.

I do admire Denmark for having higher standards. Not sure your point...

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Differences controlled across maintained borders, using customs inspections, etc.

Not what we are proposing long term.

I do admire Denmark for having higher standards. Not sure your point...

If the EU can cope with a newly created 900+km border, then they can cope with a smaller NI one. It's for THEM to deal with. We can ship out whatever we want, whether the EU accepts something is up to them.
Denmark has to accept products with lower standards from WITHIN the EU.


The Withdrawal Agreement has NOTHING to do with "long term" or the future. That is the subject for a potential FUTURE agreement, which has not been set out and negotiations cannot even start until after we've left the EU.

Article 50.2

A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

Article 50 compels only the EU to seek a negotiation, not the withdrawing member state.

The WA is optional.


A "Withdrawal" cannot have any ongoing conditions. That goes with the definition of the term. Be interesting to be able point all this out to certain quarters, so they can use it. Not likely to be that many of them around here. The problem is that there is no Leave equivalent of Gina Miller.

[Carth]

ahh blow it, no idea what I'm prattling on about, all deleted now

. . . sod it, back to gaming :P

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Carth

ahh blow it, no idea what I'm prattling on about, all deleted now

. . . sod it, back to gaming :P

Don't blame you.