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Old 25-01-2018, 15:27   #1666
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J View Post
'Let's fund the NHS' was a WRITTEN statement on a bus..and no one read it as a suggestion but as a promise.
Sorry but that really is tosh. The statement (as opposed to a government pledge) was made by a campaign group who clearly couldn't promise any such thing because they had no power to do so. Are you seriousl telling us you really thought it was official government policy?

The fact is that it was an aspiration concerning the amount we send to the EU and what we'd be able to use it for - the NHS. Only time will tell whether the amount quoted will be freed up and what it'll be used for.
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Old 25-01-2018, 15:33   #1667
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
Sorry but that really is tosh. The statement (as opposed to a government pledge) was made by a campaign group who clearly couldn't promise any such thing because they had no power to do so. Are you seriousl telling us you really thought it was official government policy?

The fact is that it was an aspiration concerning the amount we send to the EU and what we'd be able to use it for - the NHS. Only time will tell whether the amount quoted will be freed up and what it'll be used for.
So does that mean that any political party/grouping (if they are not currently in office) can be treated as a campaign group, as they are not in government (therefore cannot set "official government policy"), and any and all of their Manifestos can be dismissed, if they are later elected, as "aspirational"?
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Old 25-01-2018, 15:38   #1668
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
So does that mean that any political party/grouping (if they are not currently in office) can be treated as a campaign group, as they are not in government (therefore cannot set "official government policy"), and any and all of their Manifestos can be dismissed, if they are later elected, as "aspirational"?
The 'Leave' campaign was not a political party. Both Labour and the Conservatives had MPs contributing to the campaign.

The use of the wod 'Let's' also indicates that it was a suggestion. It certainly was not meant as a pledge.
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Old 25-01-2018, 15:40   #1669
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
Sorry but that really is tosh. The statement (as opposed to a government pledge) was made by a campaign group who clearly couldn't promise any such thing because they had no power to do so. Are you seriousl telling us you really thought it was official government policy?

The fact is that it was an aspiration concerning the amount we send to the EU and what we'd be able to use it for - the NHS. Only time will tell whether the amount quoted will be freed up and what it'll be used for.
Isn't it funny the deadly silence when I call out the Antisemitism going on in the Labour party / Momentum. I mean look what Labour was called out for doing earlier in the week, selling tickets to a Corbyn rally and depending on your ethnicity, you got a discount on the ticket price, absolutely disgusting and racist practices and dead right there is now an equality probe investigating them.

---------- Post added at 14:40 ---------- Previous post was at 14:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
So does that mean that any political party/grouping (if they are not currently in office) can be treated as a campaign group, as they are not in government (therefore cannot set "official government policy"), and any and all of their Manifestos can be dismissed, if they are later elected, as "aspirational"?
Simple answer, no they cannot. Next question ?
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Old 25-01-2018, 15:59   #1670
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
So does that mean that any political party/grouping (if they are not currently in office) can be treated as a campaign group, as they are not in government (therefore cannot set "official government policy"), and any and all of their Manifestos can be dismissed, if they are later elected, as "aspirational"?
It means what I said - that a campaign group can't make promises which only a government can. Simple. You can call it what you like but it wasn't a promise. We've been over and over this time and time again and there really is no point carrying on. The figure quoted is clearly debatable but whatever the number, the sentiment was and is the same - the money we send to the EU can be spent on the NHS instead. Clearly the government of the day would need to decide that and any successor government could choose to reverse it if they so wished.

The fact that politicians of all colours routinely lie or renege on their pre-election promises is neither here nor there but it surprises me that so many supposedly intelligent people who're highly cynical when it comes to politics and soundbites seem to be claiming they were taken in by that one statement for some reason and it altered everything. I wonder why...

Last edited by Osem; 25-01-2018 at 16:07.
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Old 25-01-2018, 17:05   #1671
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
You have missed the last part of his statement of your quote for some reason, you know the bit where he says it's still a big mistake
I quoted the title verbatim and supplied the source link. You don't usually ask to be spoonfed TD
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Old 25-01-2018, 17:37   #1672
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
It means what I said - that a campaign group can't make promises which only a government can. Simple. You can call it what you like but it wasn't a promise. We've been over and over this time and time again and there really is no point carrying on. The figure quoted is clearly debatable but whatever the number, the sentiment was and is the same - the money we send to the EU can be spent on the NHS instead. Clearly the government of the day would need to decide that and any successor government could choose to reverse it if they so wished.
But members of the Leave campaign work for the government as well and voted against an amendment to fulfill this ambition, suggestion, idea, whatever it's called. That included Michael Gove and Boris Johnson - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7570591.html

---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------

Still struggling on corrupt practices by the EU by the way. Are there any examples of corrupt practices performed by the EU out there? Certainly there doesn't seem to be any systemic bribery culture as far as I can find and I am sure people have looked for it.

I did find what initiatives the EU have put in place to fight corruption which explains why EU tenders I have helped complete are a right pain - https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/wh.../corruption_en
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Old 25-01-2018, 17:45   #1673
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx View Post
But members of the Leave campaign work for the government as well and voted against an amendment to fulfill this ambition, suggestion, idea, whatever it's called. That included Michael Gove and Boris Johnson - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7570591.html
Which still isn't relevant to the campaign, you do know what a campaign is don't you?

The official leave campaign was not a Manifesto of government policy.

---------- Post added at 16:45 ---------- Previous post was at 16:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx View Post

Still struggling on corrupt practices by the EU by the way. Are there any examples of corrupt practices performed by the EU out there? Certainly there doesn't seem to be any systemic bribery culture as far as I can find and I am sure people have looked for it.
Are you being deliberately obtuse ?

I gave you perfect examples of corruption in the EU and I am sick of telling you I do not want to be part of a United States of Europe which is exactly what the EU wants to become, eventually.
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Old 25-01-2018, 17:59   #1674
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Osem View Post
It means what I said - that a campaign group can't make promises which only a government can. Simple.
Hugh's point is that the Government doesn't campaign for reelection. A political party who are a independent organisation from that government does if you want to get into very technical reasons.

I think a lot of this is very disingenuous to be honest. As far as I am concerned the Leave campaign lied. Yes you can do the cynical political defence of parsing the words very carefully and going into the legal status of the campaign but the Remain campaign wasn't the Government either - at least not in the campaigning period when Cameron couldn't act as 'the government' - and that defence curiously doesn't seem to apply to them.

The Leave campaign was clearly being dishonest. The Remain campaign did the same thing, the 'cost' per each family, was clearly a lie. Now if you use the right formulas and read the small print then 'technically' it wasn't a lie but it clearly was! We all know they were being dishonest and although I supported them I don't feel the need to cortort myself to defend them. I didn't run that campaign.
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Old 25-01-2018, 18:11   #1675
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Re: Brexit discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
And all that had to do with what exactly ?

Because it had nothing to do with what you posted earlier and what I subsequently replied to.
The assertion

Quote:
You're another one, who conveniently forgets the lies told from the Remain camp, how many people were 'took in' from lie after lie from them?
Is false, I've not only not forgotten I've posted on here moaning about it frequently. The thing with politics is that it's reciprocal, in time an election will be won using these nasty dirty little ways you don't support and you'll be the first to bleat about it, we'll see what your reaction is then when someone replies oh well will of the people
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Last edited by TheDaddy; 25-01-2018 at 18:19.
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Old 25-01-2018, 19:06   #1676
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
The assertion



Is false, I've not only not forgotten I've posted on here moaning about it frequently. The thing with politics is that it's reciprocal, in time an election will be won using these nasty dirty little ways you don't support and you'll be the first to bleat about it, we'll see what your reaction is then when someone replies oh well will of the people
That still has nothing whatsoever to do with what YOU posted this morning and what I replied to, you were bleating on about a crappy article in the mirror about % of what people believed about the red bus and I pointed out the bullshit within it and lack of balance, where are the % of the people took in regarding the lies from the Remain side?

You still haven't answered that, conveniently.
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Old 25-01-2018, 19:25   #1677
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
That still has nothing whatsoever to do with what YOU posted this morning and what I replied to, you were bleating on about a crappy article in the mirror about % of what people believed about the red bus and I pointed out the bullshit within it and lack of balance, where are the % of the people took in regarding the lies from the Remain side?

You still haven't answered that, conveniently.
I also said the people that run and funded the leave campaign were of the opinion the bus lie was vital to winning, something you conveniently chose to ignore or are those yet more people whose opinion you couldn't give a crap about

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...-public/08/02/

Oh and what I posted this morning had plenty to do with what YOU posted earlier, the very first paragraph of your post being the clue
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Old 25-01-2018, 19:39   #1678
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Re: Brexit discussion

No it did not. Rubbish.

Still no answer on the crappy mirror article, thanks for highlighting you don’t do balanced arguments, just like the Mirror you linked to.
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Old 25-01-2018, 20:11   #1679
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
It means what I said - that a campaign group can't make promises which only a government can. Simple. You can call it what you like but it wasn't a promise. We've been over and over this time and time again and there really is no point carrying on. The figure quoted is clearly debatable but whatever the number, the sentiment was and is the same - the money we send to the EU can be spent on the NHS instead. Clearly the government of the day would need to decide that and any successor government could choose to reverse it if they so wished.

The fact that politicians of all colours routinely lie or renege on their pre-election promises is neither here nor there but it surprises me that so many supposedly intelligent people who're highly cynical when it comes to politics and soundbites seem to be claiming they were taken in by that one statement for some reason and it altered everything. I wonder why...
Because it suits their purpose...nothing more.
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Old 25-01-2018, 20:44   #1680
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Re: Brexit discussion

Good on Damian Collins for tackling this situation.

Quote:
Head of UK probe into Russia Brexit meddling attacks Twitter
Damian Collins accused company of refusing to give ‘straight answers’

Damian Collins, chair of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee, said in a letter to Twitter chief executive Jack Dorsey that his company “is simply increasing concerns about these issues, rather than reassuring people”.

The letter was published in response to a response sent to the select committee last week. A study published by City University in December identified more than 13,000 Twitter accounts as suspected bots that were active in the run-up to the Brexit vote in 2016.
https://www.ft.com/content/7ee61df6-...0-9c0ad2d7c5b5
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