Multiple fatalities in Plymouth

[denphone]

More details starting to come out tonight.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-58206101

[denphone]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

IF as reported it was a pump action shotgun that was used I’m pretty sure these are banned in the U.K. ?

IF mental health played a part (which initially it would appear that it does) then in due time there needs to be (and I’m sure there will be) an investigation into how the individual was allowed a firearms permit

He had his firearms licence revoked in December but it was reinstated last month after he attended an anger management course.

You dont generally need a firearms licence for a Shotgun, you need a shotgun licence, they are not the same thing.

Pump action shotguns (and semi automatic ones) are not illegal.
On a shotgun licence they are restricted to holding 3 rounds maximum.
Shotguns with a greater capacity than 3 must be held on a Section 1 Firearms Certificate.

(which is what it sounds like he held).

[Dude111]

Originally Posted by Chris

Dreadful, and all the more shocking because these events are so rare here.

Yes they usually happen here in the US where most people are so gun happy!

This case seems to underline the fact that our gun laws are not fit for purpose.Also that the oversight needs beefing up a hell of a lot.

There are many legitimate reasons for having a shotgun or a rifle. We already have some of the toughest firearms restrictions in the democratic world and tightening them further would be grossly disproportionate. The fact that we only get an incident like this on a decadal basis rather proves that by and large, the laws we have do work.

The vast majority of firearms deaths in this country are not caused by legally held guns in the hands of unfit people; they are overwhelmingly caused by illegally held guns used by criminals to kill other criminals (which is of course not a reason to let them get on with it).

There has been a very unfortunate confluence in this case of a licensed shotgun and some of the darker nonsense that interests angry, lonely young men on the internet. Our focus here should be on combating these online quasi-cults and in providing mental healthcare.

Having read up a bit more about the group this person relates to that is incels I think that we need to stop allowing them to spread their hatred of women and their extremist views that could almost be described as terrorism against women and anyone they regard as preventing them from having their god given right to have sex with any woman of their choice.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Chris

There are many legitimate reasons for having a shotgun or a rifle. We already have some of the toughest firearms restrictions in the democratic world and tightening them further would be grossly disproportionate. The fact that we only get an incident like this on a decadal basis rather proves that by and large, the laws we have do work.

The vast majority of firearms deaths in this country are not caused by legally held guns in the hands of unfit people; they are overwhelmingly caused by illegally held guns used by criminals to kill other criminals (which is of course not a reason to let them get on with it).

There has been a very unfortunate confluence in this case of a licensed shotgun and some of the darker nonsense that interests angry, lonely young men on the internet. Our focus here should be on combating these online quasi-cults and in providing mental healthcare.

I think you’ve missed a point here and that’s the issue & retraction of fire arms permits.

Try getting life insurance if you’ve suffered a mental health condition such as depression (even if it was ten years ago) and you’ll find the prices exorbitant.

However, a firearms permit can be returned after attending an anger management course ?

There’s an imbalance here that needs to be addressed. To my mind by all means own a firearm if required but it should be a one strike and your permit is revoked

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

I think you’ve missed a point here and that’s the issue & retraction of fire arms permits.

Try getting life insurance if you’ve suffered a mental health condition such as depression (even if it was ten years ago) and you’ll find the prices exorbitant.

However, a firearms permit can be returned after attending an anger management course ?

There’s an imbalance here that needs to be addressed. To my mind by all means own a firearm if required but it should be a one strike and your permit is revoked

I agree - however (and Maggy please correct me if I’ve misread you) when discussion turns to laws “not fit for purpose” it tends to be code for banning stuff, especially in this case where Maggy identified “oversight” as a distinct issue.

The way the licensing and supervision works does indeed require serious attention, however I’m not convinced that one crime of this nature per decade demonstrates that the availability of shotguns in the general population is a problem.

Originally Posted by Chris

I agree - however (and Maggy please correct me if I’ve misread you) when discussion turns to laws “not fit for purpose” it tends to be code for banning stuff, especially in this case where Maggy identified “oversight” as a distinct issue.

The way the licensing and supervision works does indeed require serious attention, however I’m not convinced that one crime of this nature per decade demonstrates that the availability of shotguns in the general population is a problem.

Oversight needs to be much more rigorous but unfortunately we still don't have a police force that is back up to previous numbers but are expected to perform as if they had those missing numbers of personnel.This young man should NEVER have got his licence back on at this point in time if they had truly been aware of his online activities.

Originally Posted by Maggy

Oversight needs to be much more rigorous but unfortunately we still don't have a police force that is back up to previous numbers but are expected to perform as if they had those missing numbers of personnel.This young man should NEVER have got his licence back on at this point in time if they had truly been aware of his online activities.

It seems in this case that they weren’t aware of that stuff. His license was confiscated because of an allegation of assault which ultimately didn’t result in a trial or a conviction.

“Police gave him his gun back” is making for lurid headlines this morning but based on what we know so far they may not have had any reason to keep withholding it.

[RichardCoulter]

AIUI, Incels (Involuntary Celibate) men resent not being able to get a girlfriend & have sex. As a result, they target women and men in stable long standing relationships.

It seems to be borne out of jealousy, but sex is pretty easy to obtain, even if it's with a woman who isn't too fussy with who she goes with, has multiple partners or wants money for agreeing to it.

Finding a decent long term partner is the hard part, not obtaining sex.

[1701-e]

Originally Posted by Maggy

Having read up a bit more about the group this person relates to that is incels I think that we need to stop allowing them to spread their hatred of women and their extremist views that could almost be described as terrorism against women and anyone they regard as preventing them from having their god given right to have sex with any woman of their choice.

Great point.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by Maggy

Oversight needs to be much more rigorous but unfortunately we still don't have a police force that is back up to previous numbers but are expected to perform as if they had those missing numbers of personnel.This young man should NEVER have got his licence back on at this point in time if they had truly been aware of his online activities.

Spot on.

It might have been spot on if you actually read all of it ;

Oversight needs to be much more rigorous but unfortunately we still don't have a police force that is back up to previous numbers but are expected to perform as if they had those missing numbers of personnel.This young man should NEVER have got his licence back on at this point in time if they had truly been aware of his online activities.

If they did not (and there is no evidence atm they did) then it appears they had no reason not to.

As usual, the hysteria about gun ownership runs riot, when the reality is we have about the toughest laws in the world, and legally owned gun crime is incredibly rare.

If as much hysteria was directed at illegally owned guns, it would stop a lot more.