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Old 13-06-2021, 17:49   #1291
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Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
And you are defending that - Jeez. They should be more reasonable given the difficulties the "letter" is causing in NI.

Yes, I am defending this.


They agreed to this
We agreed to this

The country wanted out, this is out

---------- Post added at 17:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
No, I didnít say that. I said that the problem was with the way the EU was interpreting the Protocol, not the Protocol itself.

Trust you to keep batting for the other side. Macron has said: ďNothing is negotiable. Everything is applicable.Ē

In other words, his mind is made up and if the Northern Irish people (whom he does not regard as U.K. citizens!) suffer food shortages as a result of the EU interpretation of the Protocol, he doesnít give two hoots.

Is Macron speaking from a position of authority? Or is he being a lone voice ?

Iím not batting for any side. If the people of Northern Ireland suffer food shortages ultimately itís us who agreed the terms with the EU.

---------- Post added at 17:43 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 View Post
The problem is it is not the letter of the law.



Link

There cannot be "letter of the law" where ambiguity exists.
Where is the ambiguity that states chilled meat products cannot be imported into the EU market from non EU countries ? Seems pretty unambiguous ?

---------- Post added at 17:45 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

Sephi/OB

Why hasn’t Boris walked or threatened to walk away from the treaty ?

He threatened to walk away enough times during the negotiations

---------- Post added at 17:49 ---------- Previous post was at 17:45 ----------

To add,

sephi/ob (amongst many others) clearly stated that we could manage just fine without the EU. Yet here we are a little over six months in and they’re demanding the EU’s assistance in solving a problem of our own creation.

How deliciously ironic.
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Old 13-06-2021, 18:25   #1292
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Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
Yes, I am defending this.


They agreed to this
We agreed to this

The country wanted out, this is out

---------- Post added at 17:41 ---------- Previous post was at 17:38 ----------




Is Macron speaking from a position of authority? Or is he being a lone voice ?

I’m not batting for any side. If the people of Northern Ireland suffer food shortages ultimately it’s us who agreed the terms with the EU.
You are just not getting it, are you? It was with reluctance that we signed up to the protocol, but, yes, we signed it. As with any new process, documents have to be interpreted.

The problem is that the EU will only interpret this in a way that maximises our problems and takes no account of the problems this causes in NI.

There are straight forward ways that the document as written can be made to work, but the EU is being its normal inflexible and spiteful self.

And you wonder why Brexiteers wanted out.

How can you defend this? That’s why I say you are batting for the other side. As ever.

---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post

Where is the ambiguity that states chilled meat products cannot be imported into the EU market from non EU countries ? Seems pretty unambiguous ?.
Er - except that we are not complaining that we cannot export chilled meat products to the EU. Are you trying to divert the argument or misrepresent what those who disagree with you have said?
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Old 13-06-2021, 18:30   #1293
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Re: Britain outside the EU

Sorry, why did we have to sign it ? That’s a complete u turn OB for you from your earlier comments.

Perhaps you could advise why these documents weren’t ‘interpreted’ before they were signed ? Otherwise you’ve basically admitted that the U.K. government didn’t fully understand what they were agreeing too

This is not an us vs them situation.

---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
You are just not getting it, are you? It was with reluctance that we signed up to the protocol, but, yes, we signed it. As with any new process, documents have to be interpreted.

The problem is that the EU will only interpret this in a way that maximises our problems and takes no account of the problems this causes in NI.

There are straight forward ways that the document as written can be made to work, but the EU is being its normal inflexible and spiteful self.

And you wonder why Brexiteers wanted out.

How can you defend this? Thatís why I say you are batting for the other side. As ever.

---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------



Er - except that we are not complaining that we cannot export chilled meat products to the EU. Are you trying to divert the argument or misrepresent what those who disagree with you have said?

You really are a loon, I hope you get the help you need
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Old 13-06-2021, 18:34   #1294
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Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post

Sephi/OB

Why hasnít Boris walked or threatened to walk away from the treaty ?

He threatened to walk away enough times during the negotiations

To add,

sephi/ob (amongst many others) clearly stated that we could manage just fine without the EU. Yet here we are a little over six months in and theyíre demanding the EUís assistance in solving a problem of our own creation.

How deliciously ironic.
As I said, the problem is the interpretation and the inflexibility of the EU.

The PM went with the deal because thatís what he was being pressured to do, but as the EU continue to demonstrate how unreasonable they can be, they will be making the case for us that we should give notice to terminate the Brexit deal.

Itís not the end of the world, and at least it will enable us to make more effective use of our time. In the meantime, we will look elsewhere for as many of our imports as is practical, and this will not be good news for the EU. But you know what, tough!

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
Sorry, why did we have to sign it ? Thatís a complete u turn OB for you from your earlier comments.

Perhaps you could advise why these documents werenít Ďinterpretedí before they were signed ? Otherwise youíve basically admitted that the U.K. government didnít fully understand what they were agreeing too

This is not an us vs them situation.

---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------




You really are a loon, I hope you get the help you need
Sorry, mate but itís not me thatís the loon. As I have said more than once now, the problem is not so much the document as its interpretation. You may want to look that word up if you donít understand what it means.
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Old 13-06-2021, 18:34   #1295
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Re: Britain outside the EU

"Pressured"?

He rushed the Agreement through the HoC in 16 hours - he’s the one who put the pressure on.

The EU offered an Extension -BoJo said "no".

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-f...iod-extension/
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Last edited by Hugh; 13-06-2021 at 18:40.
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Old 13-06-2021, 18:36   #1296
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Re: Britain outside the EU

Which chilled meat products are being imported into the EU Market?

Quote:
Northern Ireland remains legally in the UK Customs Territory and part of any future UK trade deals. This results in a de jure customs border on the island of Ireland, between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
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Old 13-06-2021, 18:56   #1297
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Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
<SNIP>

Iím not batting for any side. If the people of Northern Ireland suffer food shortages ultimately itís us who agreed the terms with the EU.
You can blame the Guvmin for agreeing to the deal - and you'd be right to. Except that you won't say the Guvmin should not have signed that deal. Should they, in your view?

NI is struggling with food imports and that should be your first concern, not Johnson's past stupidity (no deal would have been better).

You Remainers are revelling (you'll deny that) in "I told you so" mode but you're not honest enough to come out and say that the deal was so bad for the UK that we should just have left.

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Old 13-06-2021, 19:22   #1298
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Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees View Post
Letís follow this logically



1. The U.K. implements and obides by the treaty it agreed too (which it becomes
clearer by the day they didnít have the full picture of what they were agreeing to)
You trying to say they didn't know what they were voting for
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Old 13-06-2021, 19:35   #1299
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Re: Britain outside the EU

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Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
You trying to say they didn't know what they were voting for
They were trying to sit on the fence, and we all know that just leads to splinters in the cheeks.
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Old 13-06-2021, 19:45   #1300
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Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
"Pressured"?

He rushed the Agreement through the HoC in 16 hours - heís the one who put the pressure on.

The EU offered an Extension -BoJo said "no".

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-f...iod-extension/
Yes, pressured. Have you forgotten all the angst expressed by the opposition about getting a deal? ĎNo dealí was presented as being nothing short of apocalyptic.

Most Brexiteers wanted a Ďno dealí and now everyone knows why.

You know very well why there was no appetite for an extension. Iím a little surprised that you have forgotten already (which, of course, you havenít).

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
You trying to say they didn't know what they were voting for
Have you missed the point that the issue is not what we have signed up for, but a reasonable interpretation of the Protocolís provisions?
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Old 13-06-2021, 20:49   #1301
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Re: Britain outside the EU

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Have you missed the point that the issue is not what we have signed up for, but a reasonable interpretation of the Protocolís provisions?
That's not a point, why are you relying on interpretation with a legally binding treaty, you rely on what's written in it not on how someone might interpret it, they saw your mate bozo coming, surprised he didn't come back with a handful of magic beans in exchange for the crown jewels whilst he was at it
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Old 13-06-2021, 20:57   #1302
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Re: Britain outside the EU

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Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
That's not a point, why are you relying on interpretation with a legally binding treaty, you rely on what's written in it not on how someone might interpret it, they saw your mate bozo coming, surprised he didn't come back with a handful of magic beans in exchange for the crown jewels whilst he was at it
Every document needs interpretation. Thatís what courts are there for!
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Old 13-06-2021, 21:12   #1303
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Re: Britain outside the EU

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
Every document needs interpretation. That’s what courts are there for!
The courts are there as a remedy in the last resort for when things go wrong. Not as an everday part of the process.

---------- Post added at 21:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
That's not a point, why are you relying on interpretation with a legally binding treaty, you rely on what's written in it not on how someone might interpret it, they saw your mate bozo [Bojo] coming, surprised he didn't come back with a handful of magic beans in exchange for the crown jewels whilst he was at it
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Old 13-06-2021, 21:13   #1304
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Re: Britain outside the EU

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
The courts are there as a remedy in the last resort for when things go wrong. Not as an everday part of the process.
I thought they were also used to give a definitive answer where both parties claimed the 'wording' meant different things

Edit: I thought that Brown character had sold all the crown jewels ages ago?
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Old 13-06-2021, 21:29   #1305
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Re: Britain outside the EU

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Originally Posted by Carth View Post
I thought they were also used to give a definitive answer where both parties claimed the 'wording' meant different things

Edit: I thought that Brown character had sold all the crown jewels ages ago?
Trouble is that on the NI Protocol, the ECJ is the enforcement authority.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/the...thern-ireland/

Quote:
The UK and EU had other objectives as well as avoiding a hard Irish border and protecting the 1998 Agreement. These are reflected in the details of the Protocol. The Protocol is designed to meet the UK Governmentís desire to be able to diverge from EU rules and conduct an independent trade policy, while protecting the legal integrity of the EUís single market.

It does this by:

Continuing to apply certain EU rules (most particularly in relation to the manufacture and sale of goods) in Northern Ireland. The application of these rules is implemented by UK authorities, but overseen by the European Commission. They can be, ultimately, enforced by the European Court of Justice (ECJ).
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