Britain outside the EU

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You didn’t address the fact that I was not questioning the agreement. I was questioning the interpretation of that agreement. To wit, the sandwich example above.

It’s actually the consistency of your arguments that is the key here. You are certainly batting for the other side, and you are not the only one.

I didn’t call you a terrorist. However, if we are ever invaded by a foreign power, don’t expect me to support your application to join the resistance. You are too conflicted for my liking.

As per Hugh’s post earlier, ‘questioning the agreement’ is just a wishy washy way of trying to get out of implicating what was was legally agreed. As per all of my previous posts, now Brexit has been done I’d like it to be a success but that success should not come at the cost of sidestepping our agreements.

I’m not conflicted at all, I expect us to do what we’ve agreed to do. That’s all.

And, if not supporting the government was evidence of hatred towards the government. You, my old mucka, would be in the tower. What with some of your criticisms regarding their handling of covid

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

True, but again I think there has clearly been a calculation made here, namely that these will be acknowledged internationally as exceptional circumstances and not likely to affect our approach in general to international treaties.

That’s potentially true, however, my concern is that should the gfa be broken and a hard border returns on Ireland. Regarldess of who implements said border the U.K. would be held culpable by nations especially the US. It’s going to come down to who do the US care for more of in terms with trading the U.K. or the EU

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You didn’t address the fact that I was not questioning the agreement. I was questioning the interpretation of that agreement. To wit, the sandwich example above.

It’s actually the consistency of your arguments that is the key here. You are certainly batting for the other side, and you are not the only one.

I didn’t call you a terrorist. However, if we are ever invaded by a foreign power, don’t expect me to support your application to join the resistance. You are too conflicted for my liking.

So, because he’s doing what you did with previous administrations (disagreeing with what they are doing with regards their relationship with Europe), you are stating that anyone who doesn’t agree with you, is akin to a Quisling?

People who disagree with you are not "batting for the other side", they are disagreeing with the way our current government is behaving on treaties and agreements, where the issues were previously pointed out before the treaties and agreements were signed, and now those forecast issues are actually happening, they’re being stigmatised as disloyal.

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”

No one cast aspersions on your patriotism or loyalty to the country when you disagreed with the Government of the day - for you to do so to others shows the paucity of your arguments.

btw - yeh, like you would be in the resistance, and would be a referee for others’ suitablity - what skills would you bring to the party? The ability to forecast 14 years in the future?

[Sephiroth]

To remind the likes of MrM:

1. By a narrow but distinct majority, the UK voted to leave the UK.

2. The Leave campaign made stupid claims; the Remain campaign tried to instil fear.

3. The public's vote was clearly made on their own behalf and, in the Leave case, not on the campaign.

4. The UK PM, Theresa May was a Remainer who became obsessed with the GFA. She was also very weak, allowing the EU to dictate how the negotiations were to be conducted.

5. She negotiated the Withdrawal Agreement which included the NI Protocol. This negotiation was imposed on Boris Johnson.

6. Boris and his Cabinet needed to balance a number of factors, in no particular order:
- Deal or no deal?
- What would his cabinet support?
- What would Parliament support?
- What would meaningful public reaction be?

7. The Guvmin eventually decided to do a deal based on Frost's negotiations. Ignoring Boris' hyperbole, the deal comprised 2 principal elements:
- A tariff-free deal
- The inherited NI Protocol and all the issues we now see

8. This brings us to where we are now.

It has been mooted, in one form or another, by at least two distinguished members that the Guvmin took the view that if it worked well, then all is good and if not, then either the NI Protocol could be renegotiated or it could be ditched - the latter being a very fraught option. I support what has been mooted.

There are at least two Remainers who drone on about the UK having to meet its international obligations. One of them goes so far as to more or less say that we made our bed in the Referendum and now we're having to lie in it. However events will unfold in NI. Such as:

- The NI Executive will fold as threatened by the DUP - a highly ardent lot
- There may or not be civil unrest in NI but it will not be good there
- A return to direct rule might happen - that at least, if wisely executed, might help
- For reasons given by Chris, the EC won't budge on 3 customs forms per sandwich
- New elections in NI could go either way!

The whole thing is a total mess. The Guvmin must firmly, publicly and sincerely lay it on the line to the EU that the NI Protocol and associated customs rules must be adjusted to fit the UK's sovereign status, of which NI is a part.

Btw, one interim solution is to extend the grace period to 4 years (won't happen) so that Stormont can take the vote that's in the agreement allowing them to confirm or reject the NI Protocol.

I've tried to keep this rational factual and reasonably impartial - except:

MrM's hysterics are "I told you so" sound bites of no value that contribute nothing to solving the problem.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

To remind the likes of MrM:

1. By a narrow but distinct majority, the UK voted to leave the UK.

2. The Leave campaign made stupid claims; the Remain campaign tried to instil fear.

3. The public's vote was clearly made on their own behalf and, in the Leave case, not on the campaign.

4. The UK PM, Theresa May was a Remainer who became obsessed with the GFA. She was also very weak, allowing the EU to dictate how the negotiations were to be conducted.

5. She negotiated the Withdrawal Agreement which included the NI Protocol. This negotiation was imposed on Boris Johnson.

6. Boris and his Cabinet needed to balance a number of factors, in no particular order:
- Deal or no deal?
- What would his cabinet support?
- What would Parliament support?
- What would meaningful public reaction be?

7. The Guvmin eventually decided to do a deal based on Frost's negotiations. Ignoring Boris' hyperbole, the deal comprised 2 principal elements:
- A tariff-free deal
- The inherited NI Protocol and all the issues we now see

8. This brings us to where we are now.

It has been mooted, in one form or another, by at least two distinguished members that the Guvmin took the view that if it worked well, then all is good and if not, then either the NI Protocol could be renegotiated or it could be ditched - the latter being a very fraught option. I support what has been mooted.

There are at least two Remainers who drone on about the UK having to meet its international obligations. One of them goes so far as to more or less say that we made our bed in the Referendum and now we're having to lie in it. However events will unfold in NI. Such as:

- The NI Executive will fold as threatened by the DUP - a highly ardent lot
- There may or not be civil unrest in NI but it will not be good there
- A return to direct rule might happen - that at least, if wisely executed, might help
- For reasons given by Chris, the EC won't budge on 3 customs forms per sandwich
- New elections in NI could go either way!

The whole thing is a total mess. The Guvmin must firmly, publicly and sincerely lay it on the line to the EU that the NI Protocol and associated customs rules must be adjusted to fit the UK's sovereign status, of which NI is a part.

Btw, one interim solution is to extend the grace period to 4 years (won't happen) so that Stormont can take the vote that's in the agreement allowing them to confirm or reject the NI Protocol.

I've tried to keep this rational factual and reasonably impartial - except:

MrM's hysterics are "I told you so" sound bites of no value that contribute nothing to solving the problem.

This is Brexit, this is what you voted for. Boris didn’t have to accept the deal (or did he)

Stop whinging you little crybaby

PS absolutely no hysterics here
PPS would you like me to clean your dummy for you?

Everyone calm down, take deep breaths, and step away from the keyboard until you can post civilly without personal attacks.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

This is Brexit, this is what you voted for. Boris didn’t have to accept the deal (or did he)

Stop whinging you little crybaby

PS absolutely no hysterics here
PPS would you like me to clean your dummy for you?

It’s what the majority of the electorate voted for. You are clearly in the minority here, and you appear to be a very bitter man.

As I said before, it’s about the interpretation of these agreements that is in question.

---------- Post added at 23:27 ---------- Previous post was at 23:24 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

So, because he’s doing what you did with previous administrations (disagreeing with what they are doing with regards their relationship with Europe), you are stating that anyone who doesn’t agree with you, is akin to a Quisling?

People who disagree with you are not "batting for the other side", they are disagreeing with the way our current government is behaving on treaties and agreements, where the issues were previously pointed out before the treaties and agreements were signed, and now those forecast issues are actually happening, they’re being stigmatised as disloyal.

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”

No one cast aspersions on your patriotism or loyalty to the country when you disagreed with the Government of the day - for you to do so to others shows the paucity of your arguments.

btw - yeh, like you would be in the resistance, and would be a referee for others’ suitablity - what skills would you bring to the party? The ability to forecast 14 years in the future?

My HR skills might help.

I think it is pretty obvious which side some of you on this forum are on. We can all see that.

"Some of you"…

First rule of anti-democracy people - vilify and depersonalise those who disagree with your views, brand them the "enemy" and "traitors", rather than just people who disagree with you.

Is this what you do at work with your "HR skills"?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

"Some of you"…

First rule of anti-democracy people - vilify and depersonalise those who disagree with your views, brand them the "enemy" and "traitors", rather than just people who disagree with you.

Is this what you do at work with your "HR skills"?

What a strange post. It’s not me who’s questioning the decision of the British people.

I’m not actually sure what you mean by ‘democratic’, Hugh.

If we were unfortunate enough to experience another war, we’d soon see who the enemy and the traitors were.

I have a pretty good idea…

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

What a strange post. It’s not me who’s questioning the decision of the British people.

I’m not actually sure what you mean by ‘democratic’, Hugh.

If we were unfortunate enough to experience another war, we’d soon see who the enemy and the traitors were.

I have a pretty good idea…

No you don't, as usual you have no idea, fancy insinuating someone with years of military service is a traitor or the enemy and democracy isn't just about a vote, for it to be a healthy democracy it should be fine for people to disagree with national policy without being vilified for it

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

What a strange post. It’s not me who’s questioning the decision of the British people.

I’m not actually sure what you mean by ‘democratic’, Hugh.

If we were unfortunate enough to experience another war, we’d soon see who the enemy and the traitors were.

I have a pretty good idea…

I’m not questioning the decision of the British people at all, Brexit was ‘done’ I’m questioning those brexiteers who are now unhappy/disappointed/angry with the Brexit that has been delivered. After all, these people as Brexiteers knew what they were voting for.

Btw with your consistent use of terms such as enemy and traitors perhaps you could consider a name change to ‘Old Proud Boy’

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

What a strange post. It’s not me who’s questioning the decision of the British people.

I’m not actually sure what you mean by ‘democratic’, Hugh.

If we were unfortunate enough to experience another war, we’d soon see who the enemy and the traitors were.

I have a pretty good idea…

Got to love the chairborne warriors - so brave, yet so lacking in experience of the military.

Once again, you use anti-democratic language, traducing those who disagree with you as "traitors" and "the enemy".

[Jaymoss]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

MrM's hysterics are "I told you so" sound bites of no value that contribute nothing to solving the problem.

TBH nothing posted on this forum is going to do anything towards solving the problem

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Got to love the chairborne warriors - so brave, yet so lacking in experience of the military.

Once again, you use anti-democratic language, traducing those who disagree with you as "traitors" and "the enemy".

What colour clip board did you have old chap?

How about we all move on? We are out of the EU so what's next?

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Maggy

How about we all move on? We are out of the EU so what's next?

I tend to agree

However, what's next will probably be arguements about strange stuff like UK eggs needing to be painted blue for export, or a national shortage of ring pulls on coke cans, and the absolute disgrace that the rich and famous have to open the doors themselves at the top hotels because all the experienced doormen are now doing HGV training . . or something