Britain outside the EU

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Please see above - hth…

Re: Sandwiches -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xit-terms.html

M&S warned today that it is already slashing Christmas ranges for Northern Ireland due to 'pettifogging' enforcement of Brexit rules - as the UK unveils plans to override the protocol unless Brussels sees sense.

The head of the famous chain gave an extraordinary account of the obstacles facing exporter as Lord Frost laid out proposals for ending the bitter standoff over the divorce terms.

The peer is calling for most checks to be eliminated on goods moving from mainland Britain to Northern Ireland - insisting the friction within the UK is putting the peace process at risk.

M&S chairman Archie Norman said its festive products for Northern Ireland were already being 'delisted' and shoppers could face higher prices.

He said he feared that when grace periods come to an end there will be similar issues to those seen exports goods to Ireland, where whole shipments have been lost due to documents being filled out in the wrong colour pen. Mr Norman said that every sandwich required three veterinary certificates.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I'm looking forward to Hugh's answer.

I'm looking forward to seeing OldBoy's original post about sandwich labelling.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Re: Sandwiches -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xit-terms.html

And does this requirement apply to all countries outside the EU ?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

And does this requirement apply to all countries outside the EU ?

What a silly question. Why do you do this? The GB/NI situation is unique and the sandwich problem needs to be seen in that light.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

What a silly question. Why do you do this? The GB/NI situation is unique and the sandwich problem needs to be seen in that light.

It’s a genuine question I’m looking for the answer too

A simple yes or no is enough

Edit: for clarification the question I’m asking is to if these requirements apply from any non EU country into the EU/EU customs union.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

It’s a genuine question I’m looking for the answer too

A simple yes or no is enough

Edit: for clarification the question I’m asking is to if these requirements apply from any non EU country into the EU/EU customs union.

For clarification: The question is do the requirements to label and provide 3x veterinary certificates for each sandwich apply to imports from any non EU country into the EU/EU customs union/single market.

That is not a genuine question because you know the answer. EU rules are EU rules within the pragmatic allowances they could make But your question is not genuine because the EU is unlikely to import sandwiches from third countries.

As if you didn't know, the NI/GB situation is unique and the routine transfer of sandwiches (say, by M&S) from GB to NI has been shattered by intransigent application of EU rules. The poxy EU is just being difficult, most likely as punishment for Brexit.

I do at last believe that the UK is going to stand up for itself. Better late than never.

It seems perverse to me that Remainers imply we could have avoided all this nastiness by staying in the EU.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

For clarification: The question is do the requirements to label and provide 3x veterinary certificates for each sandwich apply to imports from any non EU country into the EU/EU customs union/single market.

That is not a genuine question because you know the answer. EU rules are EU rules within the pragmatic allowances they could make But your question is not genuine because the EU is unlikely to import sandwiches from third countries.

As if you didn't know, the NI/GB situation is unique and the routine transfer of sandwiches (say, by M&S) from GB to NI has been shattered by intransigent application of EU rules. The poxy EU is just being difficult, most likely as punishment for Brexit.

I do at last believe that the UK is going to stand up for itself. Better late than never.

It seems perverse to me that Remainers imply we could have avoided all this nastiness by staying in the EU.

Do the same requirements apply to any non eu country importing into the eu/eu customs union !

They either do or the don’t ? So, yes or no ?

If I might interject … obviously the labelling rules apply to third countries. That’s precisely the point the UK government wants to make.

A Brexit deal in 2020 was only possible with some sort of provision for Northern Ireland in it. The NI provisions threatened to derail the entire process so HMG accepted them. I think their reasoning was not that the protocol was as decent a compromise as was possible under the circumstances, but that it was an outrageous infringement on internationally accepted norms of sovereignty, to such an extent that they could keep delaying its implementation without loss of international support and without the EU enjoying the political commitment of its member states to take rapid legal action.

The endgame here clearly is the technologically driven, invisible customs border between RoI and NI that has been discussed at length in this thread, with compromise after compromise muddled through until it is possible to implement that.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

If I might interject … obviously the labelling rules apply to third countries. That’s precisely the point the UK government wants to make.

A Brexit deal in 2020 was only possible with some sort of provision for Northern Ireland in it. The NI provisions threatened to derail the entire process so HMG accepted them. I think their reasoning was not that the protocol was as decent a compromise as was possible under the circumstances, but that it was an outrageous infringement on internationally accepted norms of sovereignty, to such an extent that they could keep delaying its implementation without loss of international support and without the EU enjoying the political commitment of its member states to take rapid legal action.

The endgame here clearly is the technologically driven, invisible customs border between RoI and NI that has been discussed at length in this thread, with compromise after compromise muddled through until it is possible to implement that.

I think the implication from earlier posts by Old Boy had been that the EU was treating the UK harshly by interpreting the Brexit Deal to the letter and not by the spirit of the agreement. Seph confirmed that this was wrong as the EU treated all Third Countries in the same way.

If I understand you correctly, you believe the Brexit deal was unreasonable with regard to the NI provisions.

I think Johnson's end game is to kick the tin can down the alley long enough to see out this Parliament. It's an interesting situation to watch.

[Carth]

To be honest, any country that needs to import ready made sandwiches needs to have a long hard look at itself.

Getting pretty fed up with all the stupid bickering, posturing, excuses etc regarding this type of crap . . . media driven insanity that triggers the gullible

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I think the implication from earlier posts by Old Boy had been that the EU was treating the UK harshly by interpreting the Brexit Deal to the letter and not by the spirit of the agreement. Seph confirmed that this was wrong as the EU treated all Third Countries in the same way.

If I understand you correctly, you believe the Brexit deal was unreasonable with regard to the NI provisions.

I think Johnson's end game is to kick the tin can down the alley long enough to see out this Parliament. It's an interesting situation to watch.

I agree with Old Boy to the extent that the EU is indeed trying to implement the letter without due regard for the spirit or indeed the difficult political context. However I don’t think the EU is trying to issue a punishment beating per se. It’s always good to bear in mind that the European Commission is the civil service of the Union. They are bureaucrats, not politicians, and they slavishly follow the rules because that’s the core skill set of a bureaucrat. It’s somewhat worse in the EU’s case because the European Commission is a civil service on the French model, rather than the British. The French civil service is typically more activist than ours in proposing and promoting policy to the executive. Such is the case also in Brussels. So in “defending the treaties” the Commission really is defending its own baby. Annoying for us, but unsurprising.

The Northern Ireland provisions in the Brexit deal must be seen in this context. They are designed to defend the single market because that’s what the European Commission is for. The European Commission has no real understanding of national sovereignty because part of its mission is to facilitate the transition away from that concept to one in which the EU has broad competency over many things. Fundamentally it does not, and cannot, understand Brexit because it is a move in precisely the opposite direction to that which it exists to pursue.

So, the Northern Ireland provisions pursue something intrinsically “good” as far as the Commission is concerned, and anything that hinders that pursuit is therefore “not-good”. This is how we ended up with an intractable situation prior to the deal being signed and, I believe, Boris’ ultimate decision to sign it for the sake of getting the deal done, and then undermine it at every opportunity thereafter. As written, it is blindingly obvious that it is incompatible with any internationally recognised definition of sovereignty, but given the European Commission’s entire raison d’etre it is also entirely understandable that it is either blind or indifferent to that fact.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Carth

To be honest, any country that needs to import ready made sandwiches needs to have a long hard look at itself.

Getting pretty fed up with all the stupid bickering, posturing, excuses etc regarding this type of crap . . . media driven insanity that triggers the gullible

It's too easy to agree with you - but I can't on this occasion.

Your point amounts to M&S (the case in point) making sandwiches in NI vs continuance of their pre-Brexit practice of just-in-time deliveries from GB. So it comes down to M&S (in this case) choosing between increased production costs or cutting their losses. And all because the poxy EU won't implement their rules in a reasonable manner.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Carth

To be honest, any country that needs to import ready made sandwiches needs to have a long hard look at itself.

Getting pretty fed up with all the stupid bickering, posturing, excuses etc regarding this type of crap . . . media driven insanity that triggers the gullible

there are a few members that get triggered every time the Eu dirty tricks are questioned.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It's too easy to agree with you - but I can't on this occasion.

Your point amounts to M&S (the case in point) making sandwiches in NI vs continuance of their pre-Brexit practice of just-in-time deliveries from GB. So it comes down to M&S (in this case) choosing between increased production costs or cutting their losses. And all because the poxy EU won't implement their rules in a reasonable manner.

I think 'just in time deliveries' have taken a bit of a knocking just lately, probably easier in the long run (and better for the environment) for M&S to start making sandwiches in NI . . provides employment too

Probably cuts into profits, but that's how things go . . you either want to sell stuff in NI or you don't

[mrmistoffelees]

Right, so we can agree that this applies to all non EU countries, we’re not being ‘picked on’ by the ‘perfidious EU’ or other such nonsense. This is just one of the consequences that has to be dealt with. Fab